Gay Parenting

[Shibumi]

And if you wanted to dredge up some comparable American data, then you might have a point to make.

Ajax

Lack of data can at times prove a point. Re-read what I wrote, I do not think I made any unsupported claims.

Speaking of something else entirely, were you aware that North Korea has no gay people?

Besides, why am I in the fire line here? Why do I have to come up with data? Why do I have to prove a point?

Louis wrote:

It shows that Americans are always more open, friendly, and moral than most everybody else. Yes, moral. It is the European who forever fails to understand that the American struggles to live life right, to do good, to do what is right. Unlike the European. Whose morality is mostly a thin veneer, a social necessity, kept up out of fear for being caught, which is never far away from being cast away when opportunity presents itself.

I then pointed at some very very obvious signs of this not being fully correct (gay marriage being allowed and so on). He then offered a report of gay situation in Sweden - bashing it - without offering comparable data.

Remind me as to why I am the one being accused and have to come up with the facts?

PS: My only opening point was that a show like the one posted would not have been aired here, as we have another political and cultural situation. Here it would be politically correct to tell the waitress off, thus not showing any type of back bone. Obviously in the States this issue is not as clear, or the show would not have been made in the first place. Get my point?

And GAH why am I defending myself against this idiocy.

[PanzerJaeger]

PS: My only opening point was that a show like the one posted would not have been aired here, as we have another political and cultural situation.

Maybe such a show should be aired, as there is obviously still a major problem with homophobia in Sweden.

This whole exercise illustrates an important point - changing laws is much easier than changing minds. As was demonstrated in this thread, many people from nations that have passed pro-gay legislation seem to delude themselves into believing that their country has moved passed widespread anti-gay hatred and abuse. This is not so, especially among the lower classes. Gay people are then left in a precarious situation - subject to widespread low level discrimination but without any easily identifiable political grievances, allowing the media and pressure groups to ignore the problems.

Changing attitudes about gay people cannot be done in state capitals - it must be done at home, in schools, and in diners like the one in the video. It is great that gay people can marry in Sweden, but the fact that over half of them are subject to abuse is shameful. Open minded people in countries like Sweden or states like Massachusetts that have passed pro-gay legislation cannot wash their hands of the issue and abandon them to the wolves.

[Shibumi]

Maybe such a show should be aired, as there is obviously still a major problem with homophobia in Sweden.

This whole exercise illustrates an important point - changing laws is much easier than changing minds. As was demonstrated in this thread, many people from nations that have passed pro-gay legislation seem to delude themselves into believing that their country has moved passed widespread anti-gay hatred and abuse. This is not so, especially among the lower classes. Gay people are then left in a precarious situation - subject to widespread low level discrimination but without any easily identifiable political grievances, allowing the media and pressure groups to ignore the problems.

Changing attitudes about gay people cannot be done in state capitals - it must be done at home, in schools, and in diners like the one in the video. It is great that gay people can marry in Sweden, but the fact that over half of them are subject to abuse is shameful. Open minded people in countries like Sweden or states like Massachusetts that have passed pro-gay legislation cannot wash their hands of the issue and abandon them to the wolves.

I think I made a decision some time ago to not respond to your posts, as they seemed very ill founded and utterly without factual base. I just wrote that a show like that would be moot as the PC agenda is to stand up for homosexuals - as well as it being so utterly the mainstream. What you get from that is that such a show would be awesome.

The show would just not fly.

Let us be frank, the "gay issue" is a top 20 political question on the vote compass in the states, do you really think it would be in Sweden?

USA has a question if being gay is OK or not on the political compass.
Sweden do not have that question on the political compass.

Do we need to play dot to dot here to see what country comes off better?

Gay marriage is legal here.
It is not legal there (in some states).

Sweden has never had a don't ask don't tell policy.
USA has (until what, some months ago).

In Sweden you can be an openly gay priest.
In USA.. Actually I do not know - Are there any, do they do well?

Do not get me wrong, I am not saying Sweden is perfect, I am not saying we do not still have problems with it. However, our problems are less institutionalized, and from my point of view way less severe.

[PanzerJaeger]

I think I made a decision some time ago to not respond to your posts, as they seemed very ill founded and utterly without factual base. I just wrote that a show like that would be moot as the PC agenda is to stand up for homosexuals - as well as it being so utterly the mainstream. What you get from that is that such a show would be awesome.

You're so busy desperately trying to prove Sweden's superiority over the US that you completely missed my point.

You came into this thread with a very common European attitude, smugly insinuating that such a show would never make it in 'civilized' nations like Sweden because such a situation (gay harassment) would never occur there. You backed that assertion up with Sweden's pro-gay legislation, the absence of a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy in Sweden's military, and your own anecdotal observations.

My point is that while it is wonderful that Sweden's political class is ahead of America's, their accomplishments have obviously created a blind spot in many people's opinion on the issue. The studies show that in fact such a setup would be relevant in Sweden, as a majority of Swedish gay people are still subjected to abuse based on their sexual orientation each year.

I'm not attacking you or Sweden, and I'm certainly not saying the US is any better. I'm only saying that you should not assume that just because gay marriage is legalized in Sweden that widespread anti-gay abuse could not occur in your country. The studies show that it does, and at alarming rates.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Louis wrote:

It shows that Americans are always more open, friendly, and moral than most everybody else. Yes, moral. It is the European who forever fails to understand that the American struggles to live life right, to do good, to do what is right. Unlike the European. Whose morality is mostly a thin veneer, a social necessity, kept up out of fear for being caught, which is never far away from being cast away when opportunity presents itself.

I then pointed at some very very obvious signs of this not being fully correct (gay marriage being allowed and so on).

No. No, you didn't point out anything about it being incorrect. All you said was you did not get the point. Or rather, you did get it, but pretended not to get it to share that one must be garbling to state that America often struggles to do good:

I really did not get your point, can you summarize for stupid people like me?

I lost you at America being more open and friendly, and the points about America struggling to do good was just garbled. You might want to go into that with further detail.

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Just for good measure, I then shared some cold fact about Swedish 'friendliness' to gays. Apparantly, the findings of this report ('half of Swedish gays contemplate suicide, half have been victim of physical violence in just one year') which have been known for years took you by complete surprise:

I will venture as far as saying I honestly do not believe those numbers you stated, it is not the reality I see here. I am absolutely sure that Sweden at large have a rather open view towards homosexuality. A political party that would even bring that question up would be ridiculed and scorned.

Your only source seem to be some blog called "stop homophobia". Well done you. Got other sources?

As it turned out, my source was a very influential report by the National Swedish Health Institute, ordered by the Swedish government.

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He then offered a report of gay situation in Sweden - bashing it - without offering comparable data.

Remind me as to why I am the one being accused and have to come up with the facts?

Are you kidding?

Not offering data? The data were right in the article, including a reference to the Swedish NHI report. Of course, far from bashing it, I used the report to make a point.
All you had to show in reply was a dismissive post questioning my source and stating your disbelief at the numbers. Then you got thoroughly pwned with the source itself, which turned out to be the most encompassing government ordered report about the status of gays on the planet.

I showed the facts, I came up with my numbers. Louis always has a source and Louis always gives his source to anybody who requests it. It is you who's throwing around assumptions abvout America, without as of yet having come up with any source whatsoever.

[Louis VI the Fat]

In Sweden gay people can get married.
We do not have a "don't ask don't tell" policy in the army.
Go around in the capital and you will see the Gay Banner proudly raised at a lot of places.

Centurion already rubbished this, but I might as well do so again.

1) In America, same-sex marriage has been legal in several states since 2004. In Sweden, it became legal years later, in 2009. With the obvious note that America is a federal state, Sweden a centrally governed one. The legal status of same-sex marriage is as varied between US states as between European states.
2) The US does not have a DATT policy in the army. It used to have one. But not anymore, in the current post-homophobic climate.
3) I don't know about the gay scene in Washington DC. Not among the more prominent ones, I think. America being a federal state, other cities perform the function that a capital in a centralised or small country performs, such as cultural center or gay capital. There is a big difference between states and cities. San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, New York - they don't come any more liberal in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter.

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Also, New York's Village People were already rockin' the US charts way back when Sweden was still sterilising people for being homosexual.

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The Village People made me feel creative. Here's an artist's impression of the Three Gayketeers, the world's next musical sensation:



It's me (Le Bobo), Strike (El Chicano) and Panzer (Soul Man). I suspect one of them to be homosexual for real and IT IS NOT ME.