Is this forum...

[Togakure]

An account made on an internet message board, by a person who already has an account, for the purpose of posting more-or-less anonymously.

UD

Ah yes, my net-ki-jutsu lapsed there; should have immediately gone UD. Thx.

[Andres]

...really for me or for you guys?

Now of course I do not mean exclusively me vs. everybody else, but rather as a more general term to cover people who don't feel, or who are just aren't members of the Exclusive Gentleman's Club known as TotalWar.Org. For you see, I have never, outside of the Gameroom and EB Tavern (And even then that particular institution was defined by its rejection of what I'm about to discuss) really felt "part" of the .Org. What do I mean by part of the .Org you ask? It's simple; the Exclusive Gentleman's Club that defines itself by its rejection of people who are not already in it.

Surely that is too harsh I hear you say. Surely we are a friendly and welcoming bunch to newbies. Well, yes, as individuals. I personally do not have issues with most, if not all people in the .Org. I'm sure that IRL you're a bunch of nice guys. But the .Org is not. The .Org, outside of the Gameroom (When I refer to the .Org in the rest of this essay, it will be excluding the gameroom, as the gameroom is essentially a forum unto itself and which I love to bits), is fundamentally conservative in its outlook towards newcomers and people who challenge the rules and customs which serve to drive newcomers away, and even just people who disagree with the current direction of the .Org (I.e. a sad lonely death) and want to change it.

I wasn't aware there was an Exclusive Gentleman's Club here at the .Org.

Anyway, why is it so important to "be accepted", "fit in" etc etc. Just be yourself man. I never once asked myself the question what I needed to do to fit in.

I think you worry too much about such things. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care about what others think of me. Like me or don't like me. If it's the latter, it's your problem, not mine.

For example: ACIN posted a thread that was a joke, and essentially a pretty cutting satire of the prevalence of obnoxious girl threads that have spread like a fungus throughout the .Org recently. What was the reaction? Laughter? A compliment for ACIN on his ability to take the Frontroom for a ride (Save me and SFTS)? No, it was an awkward silence that suggested that the readers were confused and made unhappy either by the not-that-complex humour and/or the criticism of the .Org itself for permitting so many threads of that type, followed by a lock for no discernible reason (seeing as it didn't seem anyone else was going to post there anyway).

So, he started a thread and didn't get the expected amount of replies. Big deal. It happened to me too, you know. Opening a thread and not getting many replies. What's the problem exactly? Start another one and see how it goes.

Another example: I spent an hour writing a 1,000 word essay in the Watchtower commenting on the specific problems that the .Org faced, and anticitpating such a problem, I summarised each two hundred word block into five word phrases in case people saw the text and were daunted by it. The response? One member who had not been here for some time and was horrified by the sickness within the .Org engaged in a discussion, and one completely wrong comment from a muppet that in itself generated more comment and controversy than my essay did. This is turn reflects a wider trend that I have often felt my posts in the backroom to be ignored (Save by a few, notably Furunculus, Beskar and fragony and probably IA and PVC), for whatever reason I genuinely do not know. Of course, the essay in the watchtower mentioned was ignored, to be replaced by a discussion about avatars. As if that would magically solve everything.

Everybody has that feeling sometimes

I have had that feeling too. I guess it's either because my post was rubbish or because it was so intelligent and well written that nobody dared to challenge it. 99 % of the times it happens, it's probably the latter

And you know what, I am convinced that the reason that the .Org is in decline is because those who are most committed and should be doing the most to save it have absolutely no interest in rescuing it.

I don't believe that waking up one day, looking in the mirror and saying "and now I'm going to save the .Org" is the right mentality to "save" the .Org. It has to come naturally, sponteanously. I've had several pm conversations with concerned members lately and I always give the same advice: "don't worry too much, post and enjoy the place as long as it lasts. Who knows, by doing just that, you might exactly be doing what the .Org needs to get back on its' feet" aka negativity leads to nowhere or, worse, to a self fullfilling prophecy.

The .Org has changed from a forum about TW games, to a forum where a bunch of 20-something+ guys who sorta-know each other hang out and chat. It's like an Exclusive Gentleman's Drinking Club, only without the influence/power and without the booze, meaning it defines itself through its little in-jokes (GAH, Camels, everything after M:TW is utter crap etc.) and through its rejection of any means to change the situation.

Djeez, all this "the .Org doesn't change" is getting a bit annoying.

We are using new software, we have a new frontpage, we have new skins, we have social groups and visitor messages, new members have no longer restrictions, there are blogs, etc etc.

(what follows is not aimed at you alone, Subo, it's more as an "in general")

There have been a lot of changes lately, but apparently some people here refuse to see it.

All this whining about the .Org going down and the mods and the admins somehow having the task to save it and yadda yadda yadda. Djeez. You have an account. You can post, open new threads. If you have something that needs to be on the frontpage, you just have to pm staff. You can blog. You have everything you need at your disposal so quit looking at others to bring you what you desire on a silver plate.

About cliques and such, the EB Tavern crew was exactly that. I'm glad some of you took the time and effort to take a look at the rest of the forum and I truly appreciate your contributions.

I mean, look at how much controversy there has been over avatars, sigs MORE than 400 px in length and the constant discussion tha goes nowhere about Senior/Junior members!That isn't something which would be as drawn out or as opposed on any normal forum - the admin would just say "Right, here's what you're getting BANG". How can any meaningful change be attempted or even wanted by those same people?

That's a fair enough point. It does take a while to get things changed around here. But as said before, things did/do change. If you want change, then persistence is key. That's not too different from RL, though, so why should that come as a surprise? Most humans don't like change and it gets worse the older you get. Things not changing or changing difficultly, that's human nature.

In short, it is pretty obvious that Org is doomed, those who could do the most to change that don't care and it feels a lot of the time like I (As well as others, though I cannot speak for them) are merely tolerated as opposed to welcomed.

The .Org will be doomed if everyone will keep saying just that.

And please, you're not "merely tolerated". Have some more self-confidence for 's sake.

Oh, and I deliberately posted this in the Frontroom, as putting in the Watchtower would mean it would get overrun by banal and pointless discussion about avatars or something daft all over again, and because it is much easier for all of you to ignore if it is in the Watchtower.

Quit playing the victim already. Be a man and show some more self-confidence

[Hosakawa Tito]

Reminds me of highschool.

[Fisherking]

This is a game forum. Lots of people show up and post a couple of times, lose interest in the game or take exception to something and they move on to other things.

The people who stay usually find something other than TW games to keep them here. They bounce from area to area.

Groups may form among like minded people but there is not Old Boys Network behind the scenes.

I have often been disappointed when a topic or thread just got ignored and no one posted a reply.

I never thought it was a conspiracy though. I just figured they weren’t bright enough to get the just of the topic.

It is not a bad thing to bring up your feelings or the feelings of others, though.

It shows that you care enough to try and work out what is going one rather than just pack up and find another forum. So you obviously care about the .org.

I do to. I have only been a Moderator for about a week but I have been a member for 6 years and before that I had it bookmarked and came to read the guides or the occasional posts in the game forums. I didn’t post until I had a topic I just had to talk about and I got shouted down by a couple of guys but I kept posting. I am not even in “Who the hell are you anyway?”

You have been here long enough to see some of the cycles created by the popularity of the games, or at the moment, the unpopularity. If S2 does well there will be posts and people enough to make you wish it would slow down.

As for threads getting moved, I once posted Happy Veterans Day in the frontroom and Lemur moved to the backroom as controversial.

Someone else might have handed out warnings to those who had objections to honoring men who served and ticked people off.

Other threads get moved because they fit better some place else.

I have had threads moved from the backroom to the monastery and the monastery to the backroom. It is someone’s call on how to run their forum. That’s all.

[Husar]

Surely that is too harsh I hear you say. Surely we are a friendly and welcoming bunch to newbies. Well, yes, as individuals. I personally do not have issues with most, if not all people in the .Org. I'm sure that IRL you're a bunch of nice guys. But the .Org is not. The .Org, outside of the Gameroom (When I refer to the .Org in the rest of this essay, it will be excluding the gameroom, as the gameroom is essentially a forum unto itself and which I love to bits), is fundamentally conservative in its outlook towards newcomers and people who challenge the rules and customs which serve to drive newcomers away, and even just people who disagree with the current direction of the .Org (I.e. a sad lonely death) and want to change it.

Well, I guess that makes me a newbie. Either that or my natural tendency not to join groups really works here.
I've been here since 2003, noone has mentioned me in the "who are you anyway?" thread in the Backroom, I'm obviously not part of the cool Backroom guys exclusive club but that's okay, I don't want to be, I hate them all anyway, that's what the Backroom is for, my personal playground to spread hate and annoy other people by posting things they have to ignore. I guess.

And besides, the Gameroom is the same, I may get welcomed in a thread but I never became a part of any in-group and unless I contact someone and run after them afterwards I am never included in anything and hardly PMed about a game. When I did well in a game it was hardly noticed and everybody was congratulated except me, I left the Gameroom for that and decided it's not worth getting worked up over and concentrate more on spreading hatred in the Backroom. I'm fine with that.

For example: ACIN posted a thread that was a joke, and essentially a pretty cutting satire of the prevalence of obnoxious girl threads that have spread like a fungus throughout the .Org recently. What was the reaction? Laughter? A compliment for ACIN on his ability to take the Frontroom for a ride (Save me and SFTS)? No, it was an awkward silence that suggested that the readers were confused and made unhappy either by the not-that-complex humour and/or the criticism of the .Org itself for permitting so many threads of that type, followed by a lock for no discernible reason (seeing as it didn't seem anyone else was going to post there anyway).

I didn't read that thread because I was a bit tired of all the girl threads I guess.
I'm not a big Frontroom guy, I'm not cool enough, got nothing to say, just boring.

Another example: I spent an hour writing a 1,000 word essay in the Watchtower commenting on the specific problems that the .Org faced, and anticitpating such a problem, I summarised each two hundred word block into five word phrases in case people saw the text and were daunted by it. The response? One member who had not been here for some time and was horrified by the sickness within the .Org engaged in a discussion, and one completely wrong comment from a muppet that in itself generated more comment and controversy than my essay did. This is turn reflects a wider trend that I have often felt my posts in the backroom to be ignored (Save by a few, notably Furunculus, Beskar and fragony and probably IA and PVC), for whatever reason I genuinely do not know. Of course, the essay in the watchtower mentioned was ignored, to be replaced by a discussion about avatars. As if that would magically solve everything.

Pff.
See above, I've been posting in the Backroom since 2003 and have felt ignored most of the time. I had to pretend to be a Nazi to enter a long discussion, only extreme viewpoints get a reaction there.
I did however positively notice a lot of your recent posts there and I can see how the lack of response makes one feel ignored, but maybe it's really just that people agree with you, I won't debate you when I agree with your view and I never think of just posting "seconded".
I suppose after doing that a few times the mods would complain that I'm spamming short posts without contributing to the discussion, or maybe I'm just lazy.

And you know what, I am convinced that the reason that the .Org is in decline is because those who are most committed and should be doing the most to save it have absolutely no interest in rescuing it. The .Org has changed from a forum about TW games, to a forum where a bunch of 20-something+ guys who sorta-know each other hang out and chat. It's like an Exclusive Gentleman's Drinking Club, only without the influence/power and without the booze, meaning it defines itself through its little in-jokes (GAH, Camels, everything after M:TW is utter crap etc.) and through its rejection of any means to change the situation.

Only partly true, GAH is part of the culture here and was a lot more widespread by the time I joined here, it hasn't stopped anyone from signing up back then. the whole thing about TW games being bad is a peculiar issue, because they are.
They're not that bad but they don't get me or many other people here excited anymore as they used to, having the same discussions about AI etc. before every release is just tiring, it's not exclusively our fault, we're not making the games.

I mean, look at how much controversy there has been over avatars, sigs MORE than 400 px in length and the constant discussion tha goes nowhere about Senior/Junior members! That isn't something which would be as drawn out or as opposed on any normal forum - the admin would just say "Right, here's what you're getting BANG". How can any meaningful change be attempted or even wanted by those same people?

That's actually a good point, not to criticise Tosa who just wants to please us by giving us options, but maybe he shouldn't.

In short, it is pretty obvious that Org is doomed, those who could do the most to change that don't care and it feels a lot of the time like I (As well as others, though I cannot speak for them) are merely tolerated as opposed to welcomed.

Oh, and I deliberately posted this in the Frontroom, as putting in the Watchtower would mean it would get overrun by banal and pointless discussion about avatars or something daft all over again, and because it is much easier for all of you to ignore if it is in the Watchtower.

I think it shows that, despite all your "I'm not part of this community"-rhetoric, you actually care. And your opinion should be respected, as long as you don't want your EB tavern back that is.

Djeez, all this "the .Org doesn't change" is getting a bit annoying.

We are using new software, we have a new frontpage, we have new skins, we have social groups and visitor messages, new members have no longer restrictions, there are blogs, etc etc.

There's also a chat, there has been for 5 or 6 years in fact, because only a few people ever ventured there it has created it's own little group of elitists, myself included for once. Everybody is welcome to join though, you may feel rejected at first but so far everybody who had a bit of "staying power" and didn't just leave after a few minutes has been welcomed and accepted.

The .Org will be doomed if everyone will keep saying just that.

Something I'd take very seriously!
What would you do coming to a forum where everybody talks about how it is dying?
That's right, go away and look for another one....

And please, you're not "merely tolerated". Have some more self-confidence for 's sake.

Easier said than done, my friend.

[PershsNhpios]

My complaint is that every time I read Andre's post I became stuck on 'Djeez'.

It is meant to be 'Jeez', and I would prefer if that word retained the traditional spelling, because otherwise I find myself saying 'Duh-jeez' whilst I read all these posts aloud and that extra syllable could be better put to use explaining the point of the post.

Perhaps this is the Dutch equivalent, but I would remind everyone that this forum is an English-speaking forum dedicated to TW games, not to Frisian nuances of English exasperations.

In this time of dire need for the Org we must maintain discipline of exclamation.

Good night, and good luck.

[Andres]

Forgive me, master

Clicky.

[pevergreen]

And besides, the Gameroom is the same, I may get welcomed in a thread but I never became a part of any in-group and unless I contact someone and run after them afterwards I am never included in anything and hardly PMed about a game. When I did well in a game it was hardly noticed and everybody was congratulated except me, I left the Gameroom for that and decided it's not worth getting worked up over and concentrate more on spreading hatred in the Backroom. I'm fine with that.

As for not getting PMs, if you are not on this list: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ayers-database people generally won't contact you, as plently of people don't want to be contacted.

Its true, only some people are congratulated, normally the person or few people that secured the victory. In the last two games, I survived something like 3 weeks after my two mafia partners died on day 2 and 3. In the other game, after having a few rounds of fun, I took control of the town and won the game that night phase. I got a few 'good jobs' but no one will remember it in a weeks time.

I've played more games than anyone else in the gameroom, hosted 13 mafia games, several non mafia games, and very rarely have I not been in the top percentage for post counts for a game. But I'm never remembered, never congratulated. Never nominated for a gameroom award, never included when discussion goes to 'best players'.

But to leave over that? I know we would welcome you back, but its up to you Husar. You're a nice guy.

Here is the current game, if you want to join. We'd be glad to have you.

[Husar]

Forgive me, master

Clicky.

That's cool, I got my own page on encyclopedia dramatica!

As for not getting PMs, if you are not on this list: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ayers-database people generally won't contact you, as plently of people don't want to be contacted.

I mean when I already joined a game, noone usually wants to work together with me. This is not a complaint, just something I noticed.

Its true, only some people are congratulated, normally the person or few people that secured the victory. In the last two games, I survived something like 3 weeks after my two mafia partners died on day 2 and 3. In the other game, after having a few rounds of fun, I took control of the town and won the game that night phase. I got a few 'good jobs' but no one will remember it in a weeks time.

I've played more games than anyone else in the gameroom, hosted 13 mafia games, several non mafia games, and very rarely have I not been in the top percentage for post counts for a game. But I'm never remembered, never congratulated. Never nominated for a gameroom award, never included when discussion goes to 'best players'.

It's not about lasting glory or anything like that, just in some games I've worked hard trying to help the team and then I wasn't even mentioned by some of the people I thought I worked together with, as though I hadn't even been there. That was a bit disappointing and if my contributions are that useless then I guess mafia is not for me.

But I don't want to sidetrack this topic to a mafia discussion, we should address Subotan's posts, it was just an example that sometimes you just don't fit into a group where others feel right at home.

[pevergreen]

sometimes you just don't fit into a group where others feel right at home.

And those you think do fit in may also feel they do not.

I learnt that lesson.

[Beskar]

Me and Pizza are in our very own special group, but he usually whores himself out on weekdays, and it makes me feel betrayed.

I would be like "Hey Pizza, what's up?" then I will walk in him and Woad & Fangs and he goes "It isn't what it looks like!", then I reply "What does it look like?", he goes "Er.. dunno, but I am just trying to get some info from him for this mafia game". I roll my eyes and go "Fine", then I open the cupboard and Seon is in there looking back out, waving. "What the... Pizza?", I turn to look at him and he goes "Oh, I was just saving him for later after I have done with Woad & Fangs".

I go to the bar and meet up with my drinking buddy, Furunculus, we are there chatting about politics as usual, but this day was special, he now became a green. I congratulate him with a drink, then Andres comes along from another group, "Now you are green, you are cool enough to drink with us, Furunculus!", who gets off his chair and goes off with them to the 'special' Belgium beer section. I ask Andres if I can come then he just laughs at me and walks off.

So I just wander the streets of the org, kicking tincan's, look inside the various shops.

When I looked at the EBtavern, a hand redirected to a sign which said "all members have to be too cool for school".
In another, pevergreen, reenk roink and beefy are acting out the badger badger badger dance.
In the french café, Louis the Fat was wearing high heels while Strike, built like an Ox, was sitting between french women slurping on wine.
In a brand new shop, Prussian Iron and Hooahguy set up "Helpless Lovers Non-anonymous", sitting awkwardly when women walk past.
I even tried wandering in the Org Church, where PVC and Rhyfelwyr were conducting the evening mass, but I was sent away for being too much of a sinner.
I even treaded through the Entrance house, then I was besieged by people in gimp masks not making much sense, so I ran away quickly.

Beskar cannot into cliques.

[Beskar]

I mean when I already joined a game, noone usually wants to work together with me. This is not a complaint, just something I noticed.

I only remember you being in one game where some one first nighted you, but I invited and encouraged you to join in on other games, but you said you wasn't interested.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I've been here since 2003, noone has mentioned me in the "who are you anyway?" thread in the Backroom, I'm obviously not part of the cool Backroom guys exclusive club but that's okay, I don't want to be, I hate them all anyway, that's what the Backroom is for, my personal playground to spread hate and annoy other people by posting things they have to ignore. I guess.

You're not anonymous. I think people do notice your posts, the problem is that this is the internet and you're not being controversial enough to provoke a response.

Moderate-sounding and often sensible replies will rarely get much attention. I posted in the Israel/Palestine thread recently about the history of the situation, without really taking one side. Of course, it was ignored.

Then I strike in the thread on gay parenting with some hardline views and suddenly everyone's quoting me.

[Beskar]

Moderate-sounding and often sensible replies will rarely get much attention. I posted in the Israel/Palestine thread recently about the history of the situation, without really taking one side. Of course, it was ignored.

I stopped watching that thread since one person basically hijacked it. Sorry if I missed your post.

I've been here since 2003, noone has mentioned me in the "who are you anyway?" thread in the Backroom, I'm obviously not part of the cool Backroom guys exclusive club but that's okay, I don't want to be, I hate them all anyway, that's what the Backroom is for, my personal playground to spread hate and annoy other people by posting things they have to ignore. I guess.

Also, I have never been mentioned at all in the "Who are you anyway?" thread at all and I have 2000 more posts!

[Rhyfelwyr]

I like how half the posts in this thread are people revealing that they feel left out. Even the ones everyone else thought was part of the perceived 'in-group'.

I guess people are just insecure attention-whores.

[Husar]

I like how half the posts in this thread are people revealing that they feel left out. Even the ones everyone else thought was part of the perceived 'in-group'.

How else do you disprove that there is a huge in-group?

I guess people are just insecure attention-whores.

Bollox, you and your extremist opinions again, trying to get attention?

[Fisherking]

Also, I have never been mentioned at all in the "Who are you anyway?" thread at all and I have 2000 more posts!

fib!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053240439
evil insider!

[PanzerJaeger]

I read and appreciate your posts in the backroom, Subotan, even if I don't often agree.

As has been said, usually extreme positions get the most responses, as they are the easiest to counter.

[Beskar]

fib!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053240439
evil insider!

I mentioned pevergreen, I wasn't mentioned myself personally. ;)