WalMart: Helping the Poor, Despised by (some) Urban Liberals

[Strike For The South]

Except for the fact there are good sweatshops out there beating the walmart sweatshop

[Fisherking]

SFTS I am surprise that you are an “evil capitalist pig“!

The very idea of selling for profit! I mean, I mean....

Is this the chain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-E-B

Hum, same last name as the goalie for FC Bayern?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am not as happy with Wal-Mart for other reasons, but I'd like to point out there are worse companies.


A chain, lets call it Mizza Mut, used to pay its drivers the minimum wage, plus $1.00 per delivery, and the drivers made tips of course. They charged the customer $1.50 for delivery, so the driver still got most of that, even though it wasn't all of it.


4 years later, a chain called Mizza Mut pays it's drivers just over 4 dollars an hour, a significant decrease in hourly pay, plus 80-90 cents per delivery. They charge the customer $2.50 for delivery, so the driver is making half of what he was making, and now, his tips are suffering in the extreme because some people think the driver gets that $2.50. And by "some people" I mean basically everyone who is not tipping, which amounts to well over 50% of the customers I deliver to.


4 years ago, if I got stiffed by a customer, it was an odd thing I could remember. Now, it's a 10-15 times daily occurrence.

Should we complain that Mizza Muts are moving into town, decreasing our wages? Well, I hear the situation is just as bad at the other big chains.


The problem is that the dollar isn't worth what it used to be worth, and prices everywhere are going up, but it just so happens, the wage and tips of an entire profession got cut literally by half, as prices are rising.

My store has hired more new drivers in the month that I've worked there, than I saw get hired in the year plus that I worked at my old store. And the new guys are already tired of it and want to leave. Plus we got robbed three times since I've been there, and my car was stolen.


Yep, things are great all around. It's the economy, stupid....

[Gregoshi]

That's interesting Askthemizzaguy.

I've been working at Target (a department store more, ahem, upscale than Walmart) for the past 6+ months in the electronics department. Because of security and product knowledge, only a handful of store employees are qualified to work the department. Still, I'm getting only $8.50/hour. Maybe I'll get a raise after a certain trial/probationary period, but at the moment that Walmart $10.76 is looking rather nice. This is my first retail job (at the ripe old age of 51) and it amazes me that some of my co-workers can get by wages this low - especially coupled with limited, part-time work hours at this time of year. And my store is located in one of the wealthiest counties in Pennsylvania, so I'm not seeing a correlation between wages and the economic health of the area in my situation.

I have mixed feelings about Walmart. I don't see them as evil nor as good as they are made out to be.

[Greyblades]

Ah wall mart, america's tesco, as despised as the taliban but as neccissary for the everyday man as the NHS.

[Andres]

Are the wages per hour you guys are talking about before or after taxes?

All in all, those wages seem very, very low to me.

What's the minimum wage in the US?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

7.25

[Andres]

7.25

Before or after taxes?

Do you have to pay taxes if you gain only minimum wage or are you exempt?

If you get paid 10 $ an hour and work 40 hours/week, you get +/- 1.640 $ a month; how much is left approximately in the US after you have paid your taxes.

Is working 40 hours a week considered working fulltime in the US?

Isn't it so that the average worker hardly has any holidays? Isn't it so that your employer can fire you without reason and doesn't have to compensate you at all for doing so? If your sick, you don't get paid?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Before or after taxes?

Do you have to pay taxes if you gain only minimum wage or are you exempt?

If you get paid 10 $ an hour and work 40 hours/week, you get +/- 1.640 $ a month; how much is left approximately in the US after you have paid your taxes.

I'm really not sure what the tax rates are at that level. I've only ever worked part of the year due to school, most I made was 5000, paid about 800 tax total I think which they refunded me at the end of the year...when you get higher than that you probably do have to pay some tax though.

Is working 40 hours a week considered working fulltime in the US?

Yes.

[ajaxfetish]

Before or after taxes?

Do you have to pay taxes if you gain only minimum wage or are you exempt?

Someone more expert on taxes will likely correct me, but I'll give you my impression at least. The minimum wage is before taxes, and minimum wagers aren't exempt from paying taxes. Your overall taxes are calculated based on your year's income, however, not your monthly or hourly income. If you're below a certain threshold, you get a refund of your taxes paid (taxes for social security and medicare, etc. are still kept, however). If you're poor all round, you aren't going to pay much in taxes. If you do a minimum wage job for a couple months, but make plenty of money the rest of the year, you'll be paying taxes on your minimum wage earnings along with the rest.

Also, states can set state minimum wages as well, some of which are higher than the federal one. For example, here in Indiana, the minimum wage is the same as the federal level, but if I were to move west into Illinois, north into Michigan, or east into Ohio, it would go up. http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

Ajax

[Husar]

How can someone say he gets 4$ an hour at mizza mut when the federal minimum wage is 7.25$?
Do the tips etc. calculate into that?

[Xiahou]

I have mixed feelings about Walmart. I don't see them as evil nor as good as they are made out to be.

Sometimes a pen store is just a pen store.

This is my first retail job (at the ripe old age of 51) and it amazes me that some of my co-workers can get by wages this low - especially coupled with limited, part-time work hours at this time of year.

For how many of them is their wage the sole or even primary source of income for their household? That's one of the biggest problems I have with the "living wage" crowd. Why does a college kid flipping burgers for beer money need to make enough cash to support a family of 4? He doesn't.

[Noncommunist]

Is working 40 hours a week considered working fulltime in the US?

Isn't it so that the average worker hardly has any holidays? Isn't it so that your employer can fire you without reason and doesn't have to compensate you at all for doing so? If your sick, you don't get paid?

Probably depends on the work place and where you are in the hierarchy.

[a completely inoffensive name]

How can someone say he gets 4$ an hour at mizza mut when the federal minimum wage is 7.25$?
Do the tips etc. calculate into that?

We have this great system, where if you have a job that people know is complete **** to do (like waitresses or servicing people in general), good ole' American charity comes in and people can give you tips for doing your job so well as an incentive to keep it up, otherwise a stagnant wage that isn't dependent on quality makes for bad waiters. And then, we allow business owners to slash their actual wages by 50% (so it comes out to less than minimum wage) because we all know that it is unfair for both the consumer and the business to pay the worker, so we all let business owners take away that large portion of minimum wage under the guise of "accounting" for "wage earned in tips".

And now it all works out for these jobs because we all know that people are not cheap and will always tip the expected 15% of the bill, right? RIGHT?

[Husar]

Well, if I collected all the "tips" at the fuel station, I'd probably average about 20-50 cents per 6 hour shift.

If I got 15% of the bills as tips that would be nice though....

All kidding aside, making the workers reliant on tips is a bit weird, you don't let managers rely on bribes either, do you?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

We have this great system, where if you have a job that people know is complete **** to do (like waitresses or servicing people in general), good ole' American charity comes in and people can give you tips for doing your job so well as an incentive to keep it up, otherwise a stagnant wage that isn't dependent on quality makes for bad waiters. And then, we allow business owners to slash their actual wages by 50% (so it comes out to less than minimum wage) because we all know that it is unfair for both the consumer and the business to pay the worker, so we all let business owners take away that large portion of minimum wage under the guise of "accounting" for "wage earned in tips".

And now it all works out for these jobs because we all know that people are not cheap and will always tip the expected 15% of the bill, right? RIGHT?

There's nothing wrong with the tips system in general, it just doesn't seem like a good idea for pizza delivery drivers to me...it's not as widely known that you're supposed to tip pizza delivery drivers...

[HoreTore]

Sometimes a pen store is just a pen store.

For how many of them is their wage the sole or even primary source of income for their household? That's one of the biggest problems I have with the "living wage" crowd. Why does a college kid flipping burgers for beer money need to make enough cash to support a family of 4? He doesn't.

We're only talking about making enough money to provide 50% of the money needed to support a family; both parents are, of course, expected to work. I'm not going to pay for some housewife who sits around watching oprah all day...

Also, 10 USD an hour or less? Bah, if that was the minimum wage here I wouldn't have bothered to work a day in my life so far. Instead, with proper wages, I have worked everything from part time to the four jobs I currently hold(plus school)... Four jobs? Only in Norway.... And I do get enough sleep, thank you for asking!

Decent wages encourage people to work. Laughable US wages encourages people to sell drugs to the kids in Xiahou's family.


You reap what you sow. Have fun with your crack-addicted offspring.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

hmm, this: http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

Says that the Average tax rate for the bottom 50% (<33,000) is 2.59%.

[Togakure]

That's interesting Askthemizzaguy.

[tangent]I've been working at Target (a department store more, ahem, upscale than Walmart) for the past 6+ months in the electronics department. Because of security and product knowledge, only a handful of store employees are qualified to work the department. Still, I'm getting only $8.50/hour. Maybe I'll get a raise after a certain trial/probationary period, but at the moment that Walmart $10.76 is looking rather nice. This is my first retail job (at the ripe old age of 51) and it amazes me that some of my co-workers can get by wages this low - especially coupled with limited, part-time work hours at this time of year. And my store is located in one of the wealthiest counties in Pennsylvania, so I'm not seeing a correlation between wages and the economic health of the area in my situation.

I have mixed feelings about Walmart. I don't see them as evil nor as good as they are made out to be.

Whole Foods Market has a minimum $9/hour in northern Jersey for any position, and if you have basic IT skills, the systems integrator job pays $13-20/hour. WFM is Fortune 100 top companies to work for for several years running, good bennies, great culture, good food! EE's get a nice discount too which brings the prices down to reasonable levels. I enjoyed working there for a couple of years when I was back east, doing the systems integrator stuff, basically supporting all tech in the store (PCs, servers, registers, computerized scales, product scanners for ordering and inventory, printers/faxes, managing pricing data flow, pricing tags, regional IT development projects, etc.). There's only one in each store, but the regional IT team supports each other via the 'net, and I learned most of the specialized hardware techie stuff on the job. Someone of your character would be a huge asset to them, and I think they'd recognize that quickly. I thoroughly enjoyed my experiences with the company, and I'm near your age; they don't care about age--they care about your character and what you can do and are willing to learn. Here's a link to the Pennsylvania stores/currently available jobs:

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/careers/state.php?s=PA
FWIW.[/tangent]

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHH! I just posted in the Backroom without realizing it. #&^%!$%^%# !!!

[ajaxfetish]

All kidding aside, making the workers reliant on tips is a bit weird, you don't let managers rely on bribes either, do you?

You make me happy, Husar.

Ajax

[Askthepizzaguy]

That's interesting Askthemizzaguy.

I've been working at Target (a department store more, ahem, upscale than Walmart) for the past 6+ months in the electronics department. Because of security and product knowledge, only a handful of store employees are qualified to work the department. Still, I'm getting only $8.50/hour. Maybe I'll get a raise after a certain trial/probationary period, but at the moment that Walmart $10.76 is looking rather nice. This is my first retail job (at the ripe old age of 51) and it amazes me that some of my co-workers can get by wages this low - especially coupled with limited, part-time work hours at this time of year. And my store is located in one of the wealthiest counties in Pennsylvania, so I'm not seeing a correlation between wages and the economic health of the area in my situation.

I have mixed feelings about Walmart. I don't see them as evil nor as good as they are made out to be.

At Wal-Mart, the 10 dollars an hour thing is an average which (iirc) includes people like pharmacists and forklift drivers and optometrists, who would normally get paid much more than they are, but have accepted a pay cut to work at Wal-Mart because Wal-Mart competes with and then absorbs other businesses.

The dude stocking the shelves is not making ten dollars an hour. Most of the employees are not. But add in hourly management and highly specialized people who work as an eye doctor, and look at that, it almost looks like Wal-Mart pays a decent wage.

The average is not the realistic expectation one should have unless they're planning on going into management or have a degree.

Wal-Mart does depress the wages and income of highly skilled people, because they get paid less working for Wal-Mart than they do when competing with Wal-Mart, but because of the convenience of having an eyeglass store right next to where you buy dog food, consumers will go there, running family owned businesses out of business.

That's the nature of free market economics, sometimes the majority of consumers will only offer less than what a thing is worth, or worth to the person selling. Like the housing market. Even if the original price you paid for a house was inflated, the market creates a condition where the price of the house is deflated by more than it is worth, but because there is no demand, you cannot charge what it is worth and expect to sell it. That forces people, like pharmacists, to accept a wage that is less than what they are worth, even if it is more than minimum wage, because of demand.

Free market economics doesn't always create fair trades. Sometimes people lose their shirts, and have to trade it in for a Wal-Mart uniform.

Sometimes a guy lives on tips, and customers aren't obligated to tip, so he goes home with 20 dollars in his pocket instead of 60. That doesn't mean the job he did was worth a third of what he used to get paid for it. It just means that was how much the consumer was willing to pay, and there aren't enough jobs available to say "screw this.... I will go somewhere where they pay me at least minimum wage, thanks!"

See, because with the half-wage, plus tips, he might technicaly make over 7 dollars an hour. Of course, he's also spending 20-25 dollars a day on gasoline, amounting to a huge percentage of his income, and then there's massive wear and tear, maintenence, and higher insurance costs which are also not covered. But, because it's technically over the mininum, not including expenses, it's legal. Legal doesn't mean fair. That doesn't mean the market is being fair. It means the market is being free to set prices according to demand, or even whim. Because the demand for employment is so high, the employee must accept an unfair wage, as anything is better than unemployment.

That is the choice those working at Wal-Mart make; it might not be what I am worth, but it is more than nothing. I might not be able to see a dentist, or pay for health insurance, or feed a family, or save for retirement, or do anything on my vacation, but it is more than zero.

Wal-Mart isn't the biggest offender, because their wages are better than some. It just happens to be the largest offender, in terms of number of employees they don't pay well.

That's the main argument. The defense of Wal-Mart, has many fine points. Some of those points ignores what the argument with Wal-Mart is based on. As for myself, I've worked at Wal-Mart as well, and I preferred it over unemployment. Those are the choices we make.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

That's true, cashiers make 8.30

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...nc/Hourly_Rate

[Strike For The South]

The average is not the realistic expectation one should have unless they're planning on going into management or have a degree

.

So learned skills and a college education improves your job prospects

THE PAPERS MUST BE CALLED

Wal-Mart does depress the wages and income of highly skilled people, because they get paid less working for Wal-Mart than they do when competing with Wal-Mart, but because of the convenience of having an eyeglass store right next to where you buy dog food, consumers will go there, running family owned businesses out of business.

Lies, Damned Lies, And Statistics


Its a sad day when my fellow Americans throw up thier hands in the face of one of the most poorly one companies in the world

Wal-Mart is a one trick pony with a horrid culture, I laugh at it

[Husar]

So learned skills and a college education improves your job prospects

THE PAPERS MUST BE CALLED

So what once everybody has a college degree? No poor people anymore and everybody will be a manager and get enough of a wage to support the family?

And the wife working thing is pretty good, but then the two of you will have to earn enough for a nanny since who is going to care about the kids, eh?
And the nanny gets 20$ an hour after taxes because she has 5 kids and is divorced, and of course she will bring them all to your home whenever she comes because she cannot afford a nanny for 20$ an hour during her working hours where she makes 20$ an hour - tax.

[Strike For The South]

So what once everybody has a college degree? No poor people anymore and everybody will be a manager and get enough of a wage to support the family?

There will always be the ignorant, arrogant, and lazy souls who never think to challenge themselves

Besides a dollar goes along way, I will say that many Americans can't budget to save the miserable fat souls

And the wife working thing is pretty good, but then the two of you will have to earn enough for a nanny since who is going to care about the kids, eh?
And the nanny gets 20$ an hour after taxes because she has 5 kids and is divorced, and of course she will bring them all to your home whenever she comes because she cannot afford a nanny for 20$ an hour during her working hours where she makes 20$ an hour - tax.

Um ok?

[a completely inoffensive name]

There's nothing wrong with the tips system in general, it just doesn't seem like a good idea for pizza delivery drivers to me...it's not as widely known that you're supposed to tip pizza delivery drivers...

And then you have Mr. Pink...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLV4OxzDKwI

[Askthepizzaguy]

There will always be the ignorant, arrogant, and lazy souls who never think to challenge themselves

Besides a dollar goes along way, I will say that many Americans can't budget to save the miserable fat souls

Hmmm.... well I have a different perspective. I went for three months without any groceries, living off of scraps my roomates gave me, and some leftover ramen noodles/pasta from when I could afford groceries. My only expenses were rent, gasoline, and insurance. I switched off my phone and cancelled my insurance (forced to....) and that's all I spent. The reason why is I only had enough money left for rent and gas to look for a job, those last few months I was looking.

As for the rest, I don't know about other people, but my ignorant, arrogant, lazy butt went to college for over a year and I got a nearly 4.0 GPA. I challenged myself pretty well, until the economy went into the toilet, I lost my job, and could not get one for over 2 years. Which did include applying at every single restaurant, fast food place, retail store, and other business that hired unskilled labor, in not one city (Spring Hill/Brooksville and surrounding areas), not two cities (Clermont/Kissimmee), but 3 different cities (Orlando). I moved twice to find a job.

I was on unemployment for roughly 6 months of that, the rest I paid myself. It was not for lack of looking for work.

A dollar doesn't go as far as you seem to think it does. College isn't a fix-all solution to everyone's problems. Many people with perfectly fine brand spanking new college degrees and 100,000 dollars in debt are now trying to work at Applebee's because that's the only available job.

As for myself, loans/grants do not pay all your expenses, even if they somehow paid 100% of your school expenses which they often do not, so if you have no income because you have no job, none of that stuff is useful to you at all. You have to eat and have a roof over your head first. That's why I dropped out. Wasn't for lack of trying or bad grades. It was lack of money.

[Strike For The South]

I am sure this was a trying time for you, you have my sympathies.

However it does not disprove anything I have said

[Askthepizzaguy]

How can someone say he gets 4$ an hour at mizza mut when the federal minimum wage is 7.25$?
Do the tips etc. calculate into that?

Tipping professions like waitresses and pizza drivers rely on tips for income, so the managers of those stores lower your hourly wage, and then have you claim your tips. As long as you earn minimum wage every hour, you're fine.

It doesn't matter if you spent three dollars that hour on gas just doing your job. You still made over 7 dollars, hourly plus tip (if any) so even if you only ended up making four dollars that hour after expenses, your income level is above the legal standard.

Although to be honest, there are hours when I collect nothing in tips (it's really easy to get 3-4 customers in a row not tip you... my record is 12 in a row at this store) so that, plus the 4 dollars, plus the 80-90 cents you'd get on gas, can sometimes put you below minimum wage, even before expenses. The company and the IRS assumes that I will be making tips. That assumption doesn't always hold true. But I can guarantee you, I will be spending a certain amount on gasoline, insurance, and car maintenance. Interesting how that works.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In case you're wondering if it's me, here are some pertinent facts- I have several years driving experience. The computer calculates how long each driver is on the road, and I consistently come up number one at my store in terms of fast delivery, and the actual wait times for the customer are between 20 minutes when we're not busy to usually under an hour when we are, which is quite standard. I actually take my job very seriously, and because of the unusual lack of tips in my area, I was curious enough to ask my customers after each delivery, for a week, "were you satisfied with your service today?", and I always make sure I greet them warmly. I had to know if I was doing something wrong, because I give a darn.

No surprise, not a single customer had a complaint about the service or the speed of delivery or even my attitude. And I worked at two other stores before, four years ago, and I always got tipped well there, and I haven't changed a thing about what I do. I know it's not me. The reason the tips are so bad, I've found, is that people honestly do not understand that the 2.50 does not go to the driver. Some nice customers have been good enough to ask me what that is and how it breaks down, because they didn't know.

Well that begs the question, what about the easy solution: Tell everyone what the delivery charge does, how it is not a tip, and how tips are customary!

That's against store policy (you can get fired for that) and it's also rude. I am not allowed to discuss tips at the door unless people ask me about it (or I'm posting anonymously on the internets). If someone is under the impression that 2.50 goes to me, they'd obviously never think to ask. It's also not their business to care, really.... it's not their responsibility to make sure I make enough to pay my bills, that's my responsibility. But I am unable to do that, because the company has taken away my ability to collectively bargain as the terms of my employment dictate I am not under contract and I can be terminated at any time. Even hinting about collective bargaining can get you canned or your hours cut. The company is following what is now (didn't used to be) standard practices for this profession. If they change, they lose their competitive edge, so they have no incentive to do so. Their obligation is to their shareholders, not the drivers.

It's also the fact that so many people are hurting for money, so obviously they're going to be more careful about counting out exact change, not rounding it off, if that kind of money matters to them. It's still an economic problem. There are hours when I get a customer who tips well, and that does make up for bad hours over the long term. That plus my absolutely bare bones lifestyle and lack of other options means this is good enough for now.

Well, if I collected all the "tips" at the fuel station, I'd probably average about 20-50 cents per 6 hour shift.

If I got 15% of the bills as tips that would be nice though....

All kidding aside, making the workers reliant on tips is a bit weird, you don't let managers rely on bribes either, do you?

15% is a figure commonly used in restaurants for when a server gives you decent service (great service, 20%) and you'd like to reward him or her by paying them more than the 3 dollars an hour or so that they make. Some restaurants actually include gratuity in the bill, which is a nice feature, but those are obviously better places to work than others.

If a delivery driver made 15%, I'd probably be rich (by my standards). I routinely deliver 60-100 dollars worth of food to people's houses in a single trip, and in an hour, it is usually at least 100 dollars to 200 dollars worth of food I've served. I will freely admit, I do not need to earn 15%, because I only spend about 15-20 minutes "serving" someone, and it usually involves only a single trip to their "table". Even if I am driving my own vehicle, paying my own insurance, and risking my own bodily harm or theft of my vehicle (already happened to me), it's still not worth the same as what a waiter makes, because they make several trips to your table and can end up serving you for over an hour.

The truth is, I could get by with my gasoline covered by the company, and 2 dollars per delivery tip, no matter what the size of the order. If the company actually gave me that 2.50 that they charge the customer, I would be sitting pretty. I don't need a percentage. If I made between 2 and 5 dollars per delivery, 2 for a small order and 5 for a huge order, I'd make a wage that could feed a family, or help me go back to college. That's not even what I'm asking for.... not even a percentage, not even 2-5 dollars. Even a dollar, I realize, can pay what meager bare bones bills I owe. But that dollar is not guaranteed.

It should fall into the same category that fancier restaurants do, which is include the gratuity on your check. A percentage of the order going to the driver would be interesting, but it costs me the same to deliver 1 pizza as it does to deliver 10. It should really be a flat fee per delivery. That's why a delivery charge is an excellent idea. My complaint is that it cuts into my tips, which I need because I do not get the entire delivery charge and I make an abysmal hourly wage. That's really my only issue. And that issue I take up with the company who used to pay a minimum wage. I'd take what tips I made and keep my tank full and my car running fine, and live off the minimum wage. I'd save whatever was left over. That's a good system. It doesn't work that way anymore. And it really isn't up to the customer to learn how the system has changed.... and it's actually against the rules for me to inform them unless they ask. So I blame Mizza Mut and their competitors for raising prices on customers while also cutting wages for employees. In the end, it really is their fault for this mess.

And in that sense, they are worse than Wal-Mart. To my knowledge, Wal-Mart has not recently cut hourly wages in half for anyone. In fact, when I worked there, I got fairly regular raises (not that these raises did anything but keep your head above inflation). And, my expenses were not as high because I wasn't dragging my own vehicle through hell and back. There is still room for improvement though; Wal-Mart and companies like Mizza Mut have policies which allow them to terminate anyone at any time for any reason, provided the reason has nothing to do with things like racial discrimination, which means if you attempt to unionize, you lose your job.

Wal-Mart and companies like Wal-Mart act in their best interests as a single, powerful entity; their best interest is a higher stock price and better dividends for their shareholders and bonuses for their managers. They will do whatever they can to make that happen. They will keep wages low, and prices low, until they have enough market share that their competitors will also keep wages low, and lower prices. Now, the entire marketplace has collapsed on the worker; there is nowhere to go that pays better, and companies all across all sectors follow suit. Entire marketplaces have no unionized labor, and several companies form what amounts to a monopoly on employment. They merge together and gobble up other companies and they all institute the same practices which keep wages low, enough that they actually lose value due to inflation and meager raises.

Customers will of course act in their best interests and shop for the best value at the lowest price. They take their business elsewhere, and through such behavior, they force companies to offer better values and lower prices. They will do whatever they can to make that happen.

So, both companies and consumers have a method of keeping the market fair on themselves, to ensure a profitable and/or pleasurable experience, by acting in their best interests and as a giant, united entity. But the marketplace is not all owners and customers, it is also the labor force.

When wages are cut in half, laborers are meant to work for tips that customers aren't obligated to provide, and attempts at collective bargaining will cause you to lose your only means of support, when you can't afford to see a dentist and have not done so in over fifteen years, when you cannot afford to see a doctor and have not done so since you were a child, except for emergency surgery that you couldn't afford to pay for, when you have no way of saving any substantial amount for retirement except by working 80 hours a week in two different jobs for no overtime whatsoever, when there aren't many other jobs available and attempts to go to college and become "successful" have left you thousands of dollars in debt, but businesses are enjoying healthy profits and consumers needs are being met, that means two thirds of the free market is functioning and healthy, but that last third is being exploited at the expense of the other two.

In a market, the worker is selling a service. They should be able to band together and get a better value for it, just as businesses and customers routinely do. A business can depress the wages of its workers, assuming other businesses follow suit. Customers can demand lower prices, and get them, provided they vote with their wallet. What can the worker do besides collectively bargain for a better wage? Companies like Wal-Mart are notorious for busting up attempts at unionization. And companies which treat their employees with even less regard than Wal-Mart do the same. And that is becoming pretty standard across all sectors of the economy.

A truly fair market would have all three (businesses, consumers, workers) able to push back and get a fair deal. Laborers could demand a living wage, and negotiate a system which is both fair and profitable for the company, without ripping off the consumer. The consumer and the business push back, and the demand for employment keeps the demand for better wages from spiraling out of control. But instead we have a system where the business and the consumer both press harder and harder on the laborer, with the business slashing wages and the customers not tipping or shopping in non-union retail stores for the best prices, and the laborer has no recourse whatsoever, since they can't just quit, and they aren't allowed to collectively bargain, so they must continue working for lower and lower wages, as inflation makes them poorer, as they watch benefits like health insurance and dental coverage and even paid employee meals fly right out the window. They lose the benefits they once had, and have no way of getting it back, because it isn't in the interests of the consumer or the company to give it to them, and they have 100% of the leverage.

That's the urban liberal's main complaint with companies like Wal-Mart. A fair market would allow workers to demand to be paid what they are worth, not just what the company wants to offer so that management gets bonuses and shareholders get big dividends. It's also free market, because companies are not obligated to hire people and customers are not obligated to shop. They do so because it gets them something they want; profits for businesses and goods and services for consumers. Laborers want to get paid enough to feed a family. That's not such a huge demand either, by the way. They should be able to bargain for such, but doing it alone gets you the following response from the company:

You already make what the market says you're worth.

The "market" in this case being the monopoly stake in the discussion that businesses and consumers have, and the zero leverage workers have, because they have no recourse and no options. Not 100% of the workforce can be independently wealthy, owners, or managers. The market will always have a demand for people to bag groceries, deliver food, flip burgers. These people work hard, and do not deserve to have to work 80 hours a week to make ends meet. It doesn't matter if they aren't worth what a doctor or a lawyer makes, because that's not what they're asking for. They're asking for enough to make sure there's food on the table, and that their children can see a doctor. When inflation causes prices to go up, but businesses and consumers monopolize the discussion and wages stay stagnant, and workers cannot make any demands, an entire class of already poor people just becomes poorer and poorer.

Then, you get people who truly believe that the worker always deserves to be in this terrible situation, that their situation is a result of apathy, ignorance, lack of education, laziness, or lack of talent, and that they always have a means to get out of it, and that those who advocate for them to be treated with dignity are misinformed bleeding hearts.

Then you get others who suddenly find themselves in this situation and have NO IDEA how people can afford to live under such a system. And once there, you suddenly find, you can't get out.... then their perspective changes. But it's too late.

[Andres]

I'm flabbergasted, really.

The idea that a company would fire you if you try to unionise to ask to get paid a bit more than a fricking 4 dollar an hour. And you have politicians defending such companies? What morons vote for such inhuman beings? In who's interest exactly is it that it is perfectly legal that people get paid 4 $ an hour? Why do you guys take that kind of crap?

Oh yes, there are probably thousands of people waiting to get that crappy 4 $ an hour job, because it's better than nothing.

Meh. You guys should go on strike and the unemployed should simply refuse such jobs. You need a few protest marches. This is a disgrace. How can you possibly encourage or even defend blatant exploitation of people in the name of "freedom" and "a free market" and at the same time still be able to look at yourself in the mirror.

4 $ an hour and the illusion that you'll get tips? And you have to use your own car for delivering pizza's? They can't give you a bike from the company?

Our unions here in Europe are sometimes nothing more than a bunch of spoiled brats, but clearly, in the US, unions are urgently needed and you guys need to go on strike and protest asap. Ignore the shareholders and employers' that you'll make things worse and that you're communists. Why would anyone accept this?