Public Sector Union Beatdown Bloodbath Legismania 2011 Wisconsin-style

[Husar]

The market is going to fix all the problems, reduce teachers to minimum wage, there are still enough people who have no education but would be willing to teach your kids for minimum wage.
If you can't find any, then look to Mexico, they should have some, think of all the tax dollars you can save!

More seriously, I think it's a delicate subject and whether the teachers are doing well is very much up to anyone's interpretation of what makes a good teacher. If you pay too badly, then you will most likely run out of teacher, similarly to what I just said above, just not as extreme. The measure taken to get more then will be to lower the entry requirements, you can easily see what that leads to.
Merit-based pay just means the clever teachers who know that they're not supervised 24/7 will give the students hints as to what to expect in exams, everybody will love them but the students won't have learned a lot. I've had a teacher who asked us to grade ourselves, I think everybody got exactly that grade, it wasn't the most important course and his pay didn't depend on it but now imagine that it would...
Before that last crisis the banks had merit-based pay, which is why all the employees gave loans to people who didn't deserve them, just to get bonuses and benefits, right?
That's not to say it can't be useful, but one has to think of all the consequences this can have, you can't just claim it's a universal problem-solver.

[Hosakawa Tito]

From the Wall Street Journal.

Mr. Walker, elected last fall as part of a sweep that also gave the GOP control of both houses of the legislature, last week proposed a "budget repair" bill to address a deficit of $137 million in the current budget and a projected shortfall of $3.6 billion in the next two years.
The measure would limit collective-bargaining rights for most workers—except police, firefighters and others involved in public safety—and require state employees, who currently pay little or nothing toward their pensions, to contribute 5.8% of their pay to pensions, and pay at least 12.6% of health-care premiums, up from an average of 6%.
In exchange, Mr. Walker has pledged no layoffs or furloughs for the state's 170,000 public employees. He has said 5,500 state jobs and 5,000 local jobs would be saved under his plan, which would save $30 million in the current budget and $300 million in the two-year budget that begins July 1.

The math is simple enough. I don't agree that they must or should give up collective bargaining rights. Collective bargaining only guarantee's the right to negotiate terms "in good faith", it's not a gun held to either party's head. Blaming workers for using the system & rules that management bargained for and agreed to without management accepting their own responsibility and contribution to the crisis is typically political=deceitful. Management has the right to manage, however they have no right to mismanage.

Exempting Public Safety departments from the loss of collective bargaining is a typical "divide & conquer" management strategy. Hell, they try to do that within departments all the time. Try requiring different tiers of pay & benefits of management & politicians for doing the same job and listen to them howl.
There needs to be reform and true "shared sacrifice", top to bottom in state & federal government. Unfortunately, the top will try and take everything needed to cover the shortfall from the rest, and not give up anything themselves.

Pump That Irony: The lifeblood of the teaching industry is evaluation (A, B, C, etc.). In the history of teaching, there have been about 10 million 10 billion complaints by students that the grading was unfair, and virtually every single complaint was rejected, usually summarily. Now, U.S. News magazine, and a higher-education advisory group are combining to evaluate the 1,000 U.S. teachers' colleges, and it seems there is no indignation quite like teachers' indignation at being evaluated. The criteria are unfair, they say, and not relevant to excellence. Their solution: All evaluators need to go away until they can come up with criteria that are perfect.

Devastatin Dave
The "just a union" that brought their students out of the classroom to assist in the protest? Yes, a stranglehold on the children is an appropriate term for this issue.
I'm a product of public education. One year in history in my junior year our history teacher let us watch "Cops" every day. My government teacher in my senior year did the same thing. In fact, I could have skipped senior high all together because it was a complete waste. Sure, some of responsibility is on me but when a "professional" teacher offers you the choice of watching TV or protesting over actually learning anything, what is a teen going to choose...
Its time to stop this notion of the "honorable" profession known as the public school teacher. The majority are no less than you average welfare leach except they go to work half the year, recieve an offensively large pension paid by the tax payers, and still the US goes lower every year in tests compared to other countries. #### the public school teacher. They can "collectively" ...

Taking personal responsibility for ending up licking the rear window on the short-bus of life.

[Lemur]

More seriously, I think it's a delicate subject and whether the teachers are doing well is very much up to anyone's interpretation of what makes a good teacher.

Side note: This is Wisconsin, so the schools are excellent on the whole. I have a very portable sort of career, and could live most anywhere. I choose to live here in large part because of the outstanding schools. We have the kinds of schools California used to have before they voted themselves out of them.

So some of the comments about how horrible and useless and outdated public education is ... well, they sound like they're talking about someplace else. WI still has a great eucation system.

[Tellos Athenaios]

And you're going the way of California, apparently. (The whole union can only argue for pay rise thing or whatever that was is a simple yet effective way of flushing it down the toilet: there's little that will get people riled up as much as saying you are not allowed to negotiate your own future...)

[ICantSpellDawg]

It would be interesting to see rioting over this. An actual battle royale in Madison, similar to Cairo. Taxed citizens using force to subdue the assembled teachers would be great for the cause of stopping the legislation.

Both sides would get something out of that arrangement. Teachers would get to keep their benefits the way they are now, citizens would be able to beat the ever living crap out of teachers. Fun would be had by all.

[Strike For The South]

If the Government had any balls they would fire the 1,100 teachers who called in sick and showed up to the protests

If I call in and my boss seems me out and about, I get fired

And why are public sector employees allowed to unionize?

[Strike For The South]

Hmmmm, The union is giving into the finanical concessions

Walker should take what he can get, if this was really about the budget he should be happy

Power you say? WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE GOVERNMENT IS OUT FOR ITS OWN POWER AND THE BUDGET IS (HOPEFULLY) SECONDARY. I'VE BEEN LIED TO ALL THESE YEARS! IS THERE NO GOD

[PanzerJaeger]

Madison Schools go to court to get the teachers to do their jobs.

It's all about the kids!

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ugh, from the sound of everyone posting. The propaganda pushed by Walker is winning.

[Crazed Rabbit]

100% agreement from this end. There's plenty of state and county level reform that could and should take place. But picking out one union, that trends Dem, and is largely female ... I dunno, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And to not even bother explaining or justifying the move ...

Ah, I see your problem.

You came here with your opinion already formed about how this legislation was sexist and therefore anyone who dared to offer reasons for picking out specific unions was a sexist.

Bah.

If I could crush one public union it would be the police unions first and foremost.

And yet, because I merely offer a reason, I'm sexist? My reasoning would be political posturing, true, but what isn't in our government anymore? In DC both parties toss the constitution at each other to score points - and neither side really gives the tiniest care about the constitution and it's limits on their power. In such a climate, how is my reasoning not realistic?

Anyways, more lawyerly people than I talk about why public unions are bad:
http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publi...-sector-unions

Even President Franklin Roosevelt, a friend of private-sector unionism, drew a line when it came to government workers: "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." The reason? F.D.R. believed that "[a] strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable."

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2011...not-exist.html

In the public sector, by contrast, a union is not bargaining for a greater share of the revenue produced by economic activity; it is bargaining for a greater share of revenue that is obtained by force of law – taxation – or, if not a greater share, at least for a constant share of those revenues extracted from the citizens. What a public sector union can and does provide in return is political support for the faction that chooses to increase taxes or the union’s share of existing taxes. If public sector unions deliver on their support, they will be rewarded by ever more generous payments. There is no market that acts as an external monitor of worker compensation; there is only a steady repetition of a corrosive bargain – tax the public ever more in order to maintain political power. That is inimical to responsible government.

http://www.professorbainbridge.com/p...-unionism.html

A running blog on the protests:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/

Maddow is right in that without public unions, union groups can no longer funnel funds from the taxpayer to democratic politicians, through government employees. Good.

I hope this is only the first of many public-union beat-downs and a return to fiscal sanity.

CR

[ICantSpellDawg]

Ugh, from the sound of everyone posting. The propaganda pushed by Walker is winning.

You think it sounds more insane that government employees are ripping off taxpayers than it does to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with teacher pay and is actually a GOP plot to destroy the democratic party? Are you serious? I haven't watched any fox news, listened to any Rush Limbaugh. The only TV news I watch is Morning Joe on MSNBC Mon-Friday for 45 mins to 1 hour. The rest of my time I spend online, reading whatever I can and reading the weekly Economist front to back for good measure. I don't believe I've been brainwashed.

[jabarto]

I hope this is only the first of many public-union beat-downs and a return to fiscal sanity.

I agree. Workers should be kept under the heavy thumb of their benevolent overlords and be damn grateful for the opportunity.

[Husar]

Side note: This is Wisconsin, so the schools are excellent on the whole. I have a very portable sort of career, and could live most anywhere. I choose to live here in large part because of the outstanding schools. We have the kinds of schools California used to have before they voted themselves out of them.

So some of the comments about how horrible and useless and outdated public education is ... well, they sound like they're talking about someplace else. WI still has a great eucation system.

Well, it seems like your new governor wants to change the current system and save a lot of money.
That's not to say that you can't have a good education system without money but it will certainly change in some way.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You think it sounds more insane that government employees are ripping off taxpayers than it does to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with teacher pay and is actually a GOP plot to destroy the democratic party? Are you serious? I haven't watched any fox news, listened to any Rush Limbaugh. The only TV news I watch is Morning Joe on MSNBC Mon-Friday for 45 mins to 1 hour. The rest of my time I spend online, reading whatever I can and reading the weekly Economist front to back for good measure. I don't believe I've been brainwashed.

Wisconsin was running a surplus when Walker got in. He gave 140 million in tax breaks and is now claiming there is a 137 million deficit that needs to be filled up by removing unions rights for collective bargaining? Come on man.

[Lemur]

Crazed Rabbit, I feel as though you saw the word "sexism" and all thought process stopped. Allow me to try to work in around your defense shields, tripwires and minefields: The union being singled out by our governor is the teachers union (yes, corrections is included in this round, but they're nowhere near as big). Teachers are overwhelmingly female. I think that's worth noting, as is the fact that the vast majority of people don't seem to have a problem with the weird selectivity of the union-busting. I realize that having the temerity, the face, the effrontery to suggest that gender roles might have something to do with the big "meh" puts me outside the realm of civil discourse. That said, however, I don't think it's an irrational observation.

Meanwhile, this is how we rock a protest Wisconsin-style. You chuckleheads might want to watch and learn.

[T]he day was marked by a surprising civility when the shouting stopped and the one-on-one conversations began. [...]

[A]side from a few outsiders -- like AFL-CIO chief Rich Trumka here to back opponents of the measure, and Andrew Breitbart, the conservative provocateur who appeared at the Tea Party-backed rally to support Walker -- the people on hand were from Wisconsin itself and these neighbors were remarkably civil despite their sharp disagreements.

Wisconsonites are united, even in times like this, by many things, including a love of University of Wisconsin, Madison, athletics and the program's strutting mascot Bucky the Badger; a devotion to the Super Bowl champion Green Bay Packers NFL football team; and, of course, a love of beer.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Lemur, it seems as though you confused me offering a reason for the selectivity of union targets with supporting that reason.

You think there may be some sexism in the reasoning behind targeting the teacher's union. It's not an unreasonable thought. But what I think is unreasonable is thinking that everyone who supports this is doing so at least in part because of sexism.

Wisconsin was running a surplus when Walker got in. He gave 140 million in tax breaks and is now claiming there is a 137 million deficit that needs to be filled up by removing unions rights for collective bargaining? Come on man.

Part of the issue is not the immediate costs, but the near-future costs of pensions and the like, along with the trend of ever increasing public union wages (above inflation).

CR

[Lemur]

[W]hat I think is unreasonable is thinking that everyone who supports this is doing so at least in part because of sexism.

Hmm, I certainly do not think that, and if I left that impression then I communicated poorly. Sorry for my amateur hour. I do not think you are responding out of sexism, will repeat that as often as you like, and apologize unreservedly for causing this misunderstanding.

That said, there's a certain nihilistic glee in the lack of logic or rationale behind the selective union-busting. I realize almost nobody shares this concern with me, but what the heck, I have a vote and I live in this state, so I'm entitled to my befuddlement.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Ha! There is nihilistic glee in almost everything I've ever said in my entire life. While I agree with your concerns, Lemut, my concern is that even though half of the population has been talking about cutting compensation to government employees (particularly teachers, particularly in benefits) for years now, when they start going after the issue, you are accusing them of a sexist republican plot not based on any actual need, merely the desire to demolish working families and place Madison under one party rule. That is my nightmare as well, particularly because it doesn't exist in reality and seems to be merely a smokescreen created by a radical news anchor to obfuscate actual issues. You know how Beck has created a smokescreen to go after Google because they support the Obama administration?

Guestion the GOP by all means, but don't just question the GOP and then go to the Democratic shill anchors for the answer. Go to less radical sources for answers. Why is Cuomo doing a very similar thing in NY? Is he a right-wing sexist extremist now?

The idea seems to be to create a precedent to;
1. Eliminate the Public Unions ability to bargain over anything other than base pay and working hours.
2. Increase employee pension contributions for all employees.

Like I've repeated over and over - You can either go after them all without precedent at the same time OR go after 1 without precedent and, after success go after the others with better odds. Sure you'll have to deal with criticisms of "unfairness" in the short term, but will it hurt your chances as much as mass mobilization across the agencies? I would go with the second option.

[Lemur]

Guestion the GOP by all means, but don't just question the GOP and then go to the Democratic shill anchors for the answer. Go to less radical sources for answers.

Actually, I haven't seen any major new source anywhere raise the issue of selective union-busting. I mean, they mention it, and a couple of far-left sources suggest that it's because the public safety unions backed Walker, but that's about it. All kooky sexism conspiracy theories are home-grown. Sorry.

-edit-

And returning to my theme of high-class, well-mannered Wisconsin protests, this is pretty darn funny:



-edit of the edit-

Also, all of the conflicting claims about our state finances drove me over to Politifact, which draws the following conclusion:

There is fierce debate over the approach Walker took to address the short-term budget deficit. But there should be no debate on whether or not there is a shortfall. While not historically large, the shortfall in the current budget needed to be addressed in some fashion. Walker’s tax cuts will boost the size of the projected deficit in the next budget, but they’re not part of this problem and did not create it.

They've got a nice Wisconsin section that's worth a looksee. Lots of people saying lots of false things, and it's nice to have someone keeping score.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The first article I had read about the "strike" was in the Economist. They clearly mention the likelihood that one of the reasons for excluding the PD and FD unions was political cronyism. It doesn't mean it's the only reason and it doesn't mean that those unions won't feel the burn. Like you've said, this will deal a blow to collective bargaining in the State of Wisconsin.You can doubt that they'll get hit, but If the GOP supports keeping inflated wages for public security and the budget can't stand it, they will have hell to pay.

Fact is - People want to become teachers and are doing so in droves nationwide. The demand for the job is at fever pitch, wages are suffering all over the private economy, the budget needs this, and the cuts proposed will do nothing to make teaching less competitive in the short term. In the long term you can be sure that they will go right back onto the "gouge the public for more money" track they've been on for years. I, for one, would love to see nearly all of the money saved in education go into education technology expenses rather than teacher salaries. I think we will get a much greater return on our investment that way than throwing more money into the pit of public employees demands.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Part of the issue is not the immediate costs, but the near-future costs of pensions and the like, along with the trend of ever increasing public union wages (above inflation).

And what everyone here is neglecting to talk about is how the union has been offering repeatedly to compromise on the issue. They have been saying we can go along with paying 1.5% of salary into services just don't cut union power. But the Republicans have been shutting them down, it's not about financial stability, it is just as Maddow said, a political war at the workers expense.
http://www.biztimes.com/daily/2011/2...on-concessions



That being said, I enjoyed this: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...21949394485040

[Hosakawa Tito]

Haven't had time to search yet, but do school systems in non-union states produce students with higher national test scores, *ACT,SAT, NAEP* than schools in union states?

[Lemur]

Haven't had time to search yet, but do school systems in non-union states produce students with higher national test scores, *ACT,SAT, NAEP* than schools in union states?

Apparently not.

Right-to-work states do not have higher scores than states with strong unions. Actually, the states with the highest performance on national tests are Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Vermont, and New Hampshire, where teachers belong to unions that bargain collectively for their members.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Apparently not.

Right-to-work states do not have higher scores than states with strong unions. Actually, the states with the highest performance on national tests are Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Vermont, and New Hampshire, where teachers belong to unions that bargain collectively for their members.

That's not a serious article. It is written by someone with one opinion. She links no study suggesting her claims, has a pre-concieved bias and doesn't say whether the "results" are causal or associated. You would laugh an article that I posted out of the forums with those credentials.

Maybe the answer to our deficiency in education is to simply allow ALL teachers to bargain collectively?! What were we thinking, we were way off the mark there!

I've got waiting for Superman in my netflix queue for a quick summary from one angle (a childrens advocacy group). Here is a Harvard study questioning the legitimacy of collective bargaining in education:

In fact, the results of the collective bargaining process are too often incompatible
with providing a high-quality education for all students. Growing public recognition of
this reality has prompted some reformers and visionary union leaders to embrace the socalled
“new unionism,” but unfortunately this high-minded approach has so far yielded
more wishful thinking than tangible policy changes.

Somebody is likely flat out wrong in their assertions as to whether collective bargaining is good or bad for students. Your article weakly suggests that it is good, my (questionable) common sense and nearly everything I've read have said it's not - except for that article you've posted.

[Lemur]

That's not a serious article.

I'm fully aware that it is an opinion piece; the reason I linked and quoted was that the author made a very specific, checkable claim: "states with the highest performance on national tests are Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Vermont, and New Hampshire," none of which are right-to-work states.

Furthermore, I was responding to a very specific question from Hosa, not making an overall argument about how public sector unions are great and must be preserved unchanged. Argue with what I have said, please.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Haven't had time to search yet, but do school systems in non-union states produce students with higher national test scores, *ACT,SAT, NAEP* than schools in union states?

Why should they? Centralised, standardised tests tend to be mostly about parsing the question correctly and a knack for predicting “what they're looking for”. It's little to do with actual ability or with how much you've been taught. Exams designed to test reading comprehension of foreign languages are probably the ultimate example of this: it's really quite possibly to score 9 out of 10 on such exams using only about an hour of the 3 you're allotted, then spend the rest of the time enjoying the rest of the evening in leisure. How, you ask? By reading the questions first and then only reading the specific bits of text material you're asked about.

That doesn't really test whether or not you understood the exam material, it only rewards people who apply heuristics and don't worry about the actual test.

[ICantSpellDawg]

That article used 1 line to say that the areas that have collective bargaining have the highest scores. ONLY 5 STATES DON'T HAVE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYEES. Only 3 States have laws outlawing it. Thats like saying States have the greatest educational results in the U.S.

This statement is disengenuous because it pretends that there is a fair set of numbers to put results up against. The reality is that our system of education is not up to par with other developed nations based on the cost incurred and our economic prowess. That means that nearly everything we do across the board needs to be looked at with a fisheye lens.

Here is a site that has a comprehensive review of ALL states ACT scores for example. Amazingly, the ignoramuses in Virginia still manage to fit enough in their puny non-collective bargained heads to score above the national average in English, Science, Readign, and Math. They were #12 on the list of attainment. North Carolina was #22 and Texas was #32. Ironically, the bottom 10 scoring states have collective bargaining for teachers...

[Xiahou]

I have to confess that I don't understand why public sector unions exist. All of their jobs are defined by legislatures and, by extension, the people who elected those representatives. Why do you need to band together to protect yourself from what is effectively the people? It's not as though you're dealing with the stereotypical greedy rich industrialist here. If voters don't think that teachers are paid enough or have a good enough pension, it should be an election issue at the state or local level.

[ICantSpellDawg]

If voters don't think that teachers are paid enough or have a good enough pension, it should be an election issue at the state or local level.

exactamundo

[Crazed Rabbit]

I agree. Workers should be kept under the heavy thumb of their benevolent overlords and be damn grateful for the opportunity.

I just agree with Franklin Roosevelt:

Even President Franklin Roosevelt, a friend of private-sector unionism, drew a line when it came to government workers: "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." The reason? F.D.R. believed that "[a] strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable."

CR