True. What matters is that if we do support the rebels, the only real way to do so that is responsible is a form of direct intervention. (Though I imagine that this will require at least some number of boots on the grounds to finish it.)
Re: Civil War in Libya
True. What matters is that if we do support the rebels, the only real way to do so that is responsible is a form of direct intervention. (Though I imagine that this will require at least some number of boots on the grounds to finish it.)
- Tellos Athenaios
CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread
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Re: Civil War in Libya
Obama asks Saudi Arabia to airlift guns to rebels
I'm concerned that Secretary Gates is not interested in setting up a no fly zone at this point. I wonder what his pre-requisites would be to warrant that action.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-07-2011 at 17:03.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Civil War in Libya
A case of Lemur's disease: that is the exact same article PJ posted a few posts above...
- Tellos Athenaios
CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread
“ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.
Re: Civil War in Libya
crapOriginally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Civil War in Libya
The ability to do it would be one.
To set up a no-fly zone would first require that all anti-aircraft measures (command and control, radar etc) were taken out. That means bombing the ground. Gaddafi would have half these facilities re-located next to schools within a day, possibly already. I'm sure the Libyan rebels would be jumping with joy seeing the Western powers bombing children for them.
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Re: Civil War in Libya
Even if we could take out the AA, there are still issues with the no-fly zone.
Libya is rather big, patrolling the airspace simply would take a whole lot of resources. And with the military stretched thin as it is, and the budgets looking as they do, I just do not see it happen anytime soon.
Few are born with it, even fewer know what to do with it.
Re: Civil War in Libya
nvm
Last edited by Shibumi; 03-08-2011 at 11:04. Reason: double post
Few are born with it, even fewer know what to do with it.
Re: Civil War in Libya
Getting involved with any side if Libya is not going to end well.
If the side wins we back they're a Western stooge. If it doesn't, the leaders now hate us.
Whoever wins is going to "take off the white gloves" at some point. And we in the oh so pure West like to pretend that war is a clean fight (of course we all turn a blind eye when we're involved). We won't be able to place a news blackout as we would if we were in charge. So, pictures of our "allies" doing probably a long list of "warcrimes" - or prior to the UN, standard acts of war.
We get involved then we'll get blamed for any humanitarian diaster that takes place. If the rules of engagement are only fire if fired upon, then await cries of massacares whilst our troops watched. If more... elexible then await our troops shot "innocents".
No-fly zone is a joke. A great idea for the UN to have a serious debate until all the shooting stops. It's sufficiently complicated to take months to sort out if required.
Let the African Union take the lead in this mess. We could possibly donate some stuff to them to help, but that should really be it.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: Civil War in Libya
I love it how all the people who were gung-ho for the Afghan and Iraq invasions are now starting to come out with the same comments about Libya that the 'doves' were saying about Iraq and Afghanistan all those years ago. Glad that these 'hawks' have started to grow up a little.
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
Re: Civil War in Libya
In Iraq there was possibly a causus belli - which turned out to be utterly discredited. I doubt there would have been so many Hawks who'd've gone in for basically nothing.
The complete lack of a reconstruction plan was something that most Hawks would have also viewed as essential, merely out of pragmatism.
Afghanistan was another theatre where mission creep has become endemic. Was the initial plan to turn Afghanistan into Denmark, or cull those who harbour an enemy of America?
There is also the fact that neither of these situations has been resolved, so even hawks might think twice about a third concurrent conflict.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: Civil War in Libya
Afghanistan was justified, and in my opinion established the correct Western doctrine regarding nations that actively host terrorist cells that launch international attacks - i.e., that they will share in the responsibility. Trying to establish a democracy there is debatable. We probably should have just installed a Western backed strongman and been done with it, but we are idealists at heart I suppose.
Iraq, to me, was a form of mutually beneficial imperialism. The US would have reasserted its preeminence in the world after 9/11, turned an enemy into an ally in a critical region of the world, and collected all the benefits that come with it (lucrative oil and trade contracts), while the Iraqis would be free of a dictator, enjoy the benefits (freedom and human rights) of a US supported representative democracy, and likely become the Germany, Japan, or South Korea of the Middle East. Obviously it didn't turn out that way and the thought process behind the invasion reflected a level of hubris that came out of the amazingly lopsided First Gulf War and the booming '90s. It has been a huge loss for the US, but also for the Iraqis who were too short sighted to see the gift they'd been given. Lesson learned.
Intervention in Libya doesn't even offer the pretext of a happy ending, and certainly not any substantive gain, and is fraught with dangers and unintended consequences.
The truth is that these people are not our brothers in arms. Most of them hate the Western world over real and perceived injustices only slightly less than they hate their own governments. I, for one, will never again rise in support of 'freeing' any Middle Eastern nation - they don't want it, and if they cannot do it themselves, they don't deserve it.
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 03-08-2011 at 14:57.
Re: Civil War in Libya
Here here... I hate to say it but this decribes me.
a) We have no business getting involved in another country's affairs
b) We have enough problems of our own. Instead of wasting money in Libya, how about we use the money for constructive purposes at home?
Re: Civil War in Libya
How about doing nothing. I agree with Panzer. I think. Our chivalrous rescue attempt of rescuing... who?? Why were our soldiers captured an the evacuees released. Why didn't they bring any marines the Tromp has them on board at all time. I have no idea what's going on anymore. SAS gets caught by rebels Dutch get caught by loyalists. wth
Re: Civil War in Libya
I'm saying naval support, air support with a no-fly zone and arms shipments to the opposition. If we need special forces to take out air defenses, then so be it - get in, get out.
This is what the U.S. military is best at. Gaddafi turning back the tide is not an option, so plan accordingly.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-18-2011 at 00:03.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Civil War in Libya
Let them have this wether they succeed or not, at least it will be theirs, would you be very comfortable with finding your destiny if you know it really never really was your own doing, but an artificial construct
Last edited by Fragony; 03-07-2011 at 18:06. Reason: forgot words
Re: Civil War in Libya
I am sure the Dutch are still uncomfortable with that fact that they did not bring the nazis out of the country on their own.
That said, the rebels do actuall ask the West in particular to help them removing the threat from the air.
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Re: Civil War in Libya
Why the hell dont the Italians do summit about it instead of engaging in bunga bunga parties, sure it's there post colonial mess is it not.
They dont even need a carrier they can just hop across in jet and bomb theout of Gadaffi and back for the bunga party later on.
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: Civil War in Libya
Maybe we should airdrop some food and medical supplies into the revelutionary controled areas, like what the chocolate bomber did in east germany during the cold war. We could easily get away with it by saying it's a humanitarian mission and gaddafi couldnt try to shoot down the planes in fear of ticking off the UN.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
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Re: Civil War in Libya
Nah, military-wise we have nothing to be ashamed about, we didn't exactly roll over, it's the holocaust that still stings.
Rebels may ask for military support but I think we shouldn't meddle. Whatever happens, every dictator in the world is crapping it's pants from now on. Never be rude to an Arab geez
Re: Civil War in Libya
Jalaa!Never be rude to an Arab geez
Hospitality is sacred, rudeness is a capital offense. Or so they say
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