Civil War in Libya

[Viking]

I'm all for West/UN/WhatevarCoalitionMadeUpAsAMeansOfTheBenefitsOfG8 getting out, leaving them be.

That means leaving Gaddafi be. The free Libyan people requested us, the outside world, to intervene. Did you not see the celebrations when the UN resolution was announced? We do not heed the wishes of a mad dictator who is willing to sacrifice his own people for his own sake - but rather we act at the request of the Libyan people.

The question is whether or not you think you yourself know better than the Libyan people what is right to do?






I don't think they would appreciate your knee-jerk responses in neither Benghazi nor Misurata, that is for sure.

[LeftEyeNine]

I see, so they are apparently unaware of what kind of a hell USA turned Iraq into after their much-celebrated intervening.

Let me put it this way. Take the least geopolitically and economically important country as an example and let it boil up like that, if UN/NATO/YourFavoriteHumanitarianArmedForcesWithAbsolutelyNoIntentionOfExploit makes a full-fledged and decisive aid, then I was a death-to-usa-suicide-monger all along.

[PanzerJaeger]

I see, so they are apparently unaware of what kind of a hell USA turned Iraq into after their much-celebrated intervening.

Point of order. The Iraqis plunged Iraq into hell. America drug them out of it kicking and screaming.

Arab league now criticizes the actions of the US and others. Get a grip, what did they expect?

What did you expect? This is not atypical behavior from the Arab League. This will become so distorted that by the end of it the average man on the arab street will hate the West even more. It's already happening.

"What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians," Amr Moussa said, announcing an emergency Arab League meeting to discuss Libya.

The overthrow of Mubarak in Egypt and Tunisia's Zine al Abidine bin Ali -- as well as mass protests against leaders in Yemen and Bahrain -- have restored a dormant Arab pride which was crushed by decades of autocracy and foreign intervention.

But many people in the Arab world, while anxious to see the end of Gaddafi's rule, felt that the resort to Western military action has tarnished Libya's revolution.

"Who will accept that foreign countries attack an Arab country? This is something shameful," said Yemeni rights activist Bashir Othman.

Support for military action was also muted by deep-seated suspicions that the West is more concerned with securing access to Arab oil supplies than supporting Arab aspirations.

"They are hitting Libya because of the oil, not to protect the Libyans," said Ali al-Jassem, 53, in the village of Sitra in Bahrain, where protests by the Shi'ite Muslim majority against the Sunni ruling Al-Khalifa family have triggered military reinforcement by neighbouring Gulf Arab forces.

In other news, yay for interminable conflict! As I said, the UN resolution doesn't say what a lot of people here think it says. If Qaddafi wants to stay in power, there is little we can do to stop him, and now we're committed to the indefinite protection of a failed insurgency.

After French jets destroyed four Libyan tanks outside the de facto rebel capital of Benghazi on Saturday, according to French defense sources, Qaddafi promised to attack Mediterranean targets. His defiance of UN Resolution 1973 comes as European and American leaders back off calls for the strongman's ouster.

French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe Sunday said coalition military “operations will continue in the days to come, until the Libyan regime accepts the UN resolution,” but he added that the ouster of the 41-year-ruler was not the signal purpose.

Qaddafi staying in power is "certainly potentially one outcome," Admiral Mullen told NBC's "Meet the Press," adding that the UN-approved airstrikes "are limited and it isn't about seeing him go."

Pentagon officials and the White House are at pains to describe the UN-sanctioned venture as a European-led operation to save the lives of Libyans.

Speaking from Brazil on Saturday night, President Obama described the attacks as a “limited military action” employing a “broad coalition” that is European led, and that the decision to go ahead “is not an outcome we sought… But we can’t stand idly by when a tyrant tells his people that there will be no mercy.”

[Sarmatian]

That means leaving Gaddafi be. The free Libyan people requested us, the outside world, to intervene. Did you not see the celebrations when the UN resolution was announced? We do not heed the wishes of a mad dictator who is willing to sacrifice his own people for his own sake - but rather we act at the request of the Libyan people.

The question is whether or not you think you yourself know better than the Libyan people what is right to do?


I don't think they would appreciate your knee-jerk responses in neither Benghazi nor Misurata, that is for sure.

Since when is the minority that took up arms considered Free Libyan People? 600,000 people of Benghazi speak for the rest 6,000,000 people of Libya?

Who are those rebels, what are their aims, who are their leaders, where did they get their weapons, how are they organized, why were they showing old flags of Libya when it was protectorate of the west etc, etc...? We don't know anything about them except the fact that they are against Gadaffi.

It smells of another self-serving operation of the west in the most oil-rich African country, using a tried recipe that consist of deposing current regime and planting a puppet and having western companies in charge of oil and gas resources. China was already buying 11% of Libya oil and the percentage was growing, we can't have that, can we...

[Viking]

I see, so they are apparently unaware of what kind of a hell USA turned Iraq into after their much-celebrated intervening.

Let me put it this way. Take the least geopolitically and economically important country as an example and let it boil up like that, if UN/NATO/YourFavoriteHumanitarianArmedForcesWithAbsolutelyNoIntentionOfExploit makes a full-fledged and decisive aid, then I was a death-to-usa-suicide-monger all along.

Much-celebrated? What sort alternative reality do you live in? This is not Iraq, it is not Afghanistan - it is Libya. You elegantly dodged my questions like they were radioactive - probably because you do not have answers to them. You want to deny the Libyan people the help that they have asked for, and it is not you but them who would have to pay the price for it - in blood.

Since when is the minority that took up arms considered Free Libyan People? 600,000 people of Benghazi speak for the rest 6,000,000 people of Libya?

Who are those rebels, what are their aims, who are their leaders, where did they get their weapons, how are they organized, why were they showing old flags of Libya when it was protectorate of the west etc, etc...? We don't know anything about them except the fact that they are against Gadaffi.

It smells of another self-serving operation of the west in the most oil-rich African country, using a tried recipe that consist of deposing current regime and planting a puppet and having western companies in charge of oil and gas resources. China was already buying 11% of Libya oil and the percentage was growing, we can't have that, can we...

You could have answered those questions pretty easily yourself if you had been following this case a bit more closely - interviews with both rebel fighters and protesters in the streets can tell you very much indeed.

According to Wikipedia, the rebel controlled Cyrenaica region has 1.6 million inhabitants. Misrata adds another 500,000. It also looks like the majority of Tripoli's 1.2 million inhabitants are more or less sympathetic with the revolt - do not forget that Tripoli was "set on fire" in its early days - and that the rallies in support for Gaddafi are extraordinarily small for such a large city. Dicators tend to be unpopular anyway, it is not something that should surprise you..

As for the oil, we could suck up to Gaddafi if we wanted oil - with a dicatorship in place, we only need to worry about one man, not an entire population. Naturally, the reason why Norway participates is because we need more oil. We have plenty of oil for our vehicles, but we need swimming pools for each and everyone one of us filled up with oil.

[LeftEyeNine]

@Viking

I thought I had answered them ? I checked again and apparently missed something, what is it ?

Yeah I deny what Libyan people asked for because I mimic USA/France/UK/. I want to gendarme the whole world and intervene as I see fit.

It is Iraq and Afghanistan, in terms of benefits, and that's why it's being "intervened" according to "calls for help", which you could find anywhere in turmoil. That's exactly what the big brothers would have asked for, actually. Interesting.. ^^

[ICantSpellDawg]

@Viking


It is Iraq and Afghanistan, in terms of benefits, and that's why it's being "intervened" according to "calls for help", which you could find anywhere in turmoil. That's exactly what the big brothers asked for, actually. Interesting.. ^^

In Iraq, the lie about oil holds can be made to the average gullible person, but how is Afghanistan a benefit to us? As a police action monger, I was really pissed when we were forced to go into Afghanistan. Terrible terrain for our forces and technology, bad track record with invasion, ignorant as hell population, next to Pakistan with all of its failures to control its own population, and a massive expense. Sure, we have managed to create some unexpected benefits, such as advancing our technology and troop capabilities further and gained a land border with Western China that our military occupies, but that was destined to be a thankless action. I am equally reluctant to do anything against Iran due to their terrain.

There is assisting an oppressed people in a flat, desert terrain - I'm all for it.
Then there is assisting an oppressed people in mountainous terrain, which I would be hard pressed to support for anything other than core national interests.

[Viking]

@Viking

I thought I had answered them ? I checked again and apparently missed something, what is it ?

Yeah I deny what Libyan people asked for because I mimic USA/France/UK/. I want to gendarme the whole world and intervene as I see fit.

It is Iraq and Afghanistan, in terms of benefits, and that's why it's being "intervened" according to "calls for help", which you could find anywhere in turmoil. That's exactly what the big brothers would have asked for, actually. Interesting.. ^^

Q1: Whose side are you on? Gaddafi or the rebels? Neither?
Q2: Do you know better than the Libyans what is best for them? Yes? No?

I see no direct answers to these questions. By wanting to deny the rebels and the civilians the help they are asking for, you are indeed intervening - hypocrisy on your part. Inaction is action, it is just so much easier to defend.

There are no internal affairs of a country here - there are the affairs of a mad dictator, for whom the outside world should not shred a single tear; and the affairs of the civilian population/the rebels.

There is not action because of the calls for help in themselves, but because of the unique situation in the country. Mind you, either way, Arab countries will most likely take part in military operation and thus become a part of this terrible Western conspiracy against...Óðinn knows who. All that is good?

About benefits: Aghanistan is from an economical perspective a big hole in which the participating nations throws the lives of their soldiers money into. No profit there. In Iraq, the operations have also been really expensive. I want to see the numbers proving that the Western powers will have come out with a sensible amount profit before Iraq runs out of oil. Furthermore, last time I checked, the Chinese are also cashing in on Iraqi oil:

China's state-owned oil firm CNPC has agreed a $3bn (£1.63bn) oil services contract with the government of Iraq.

The two parties renegotiated a 1997 deal to pump oil from the Ahdab oilfield, the Iraqi oil minister said.

Under the new deal, output from the oilfield will be 110,000 barrels per day, up from the 90,000 barrels forecast in the original deal.

The deal is the first major oil contract with a foreign firm since the US-led war in Iraq, reports say.

The Chinese are probably also a part of the grand conspiracy, I reckon.

[tibilicus]

@Viking

I thought I had answered them ? I checked again and apparently missed something, what is it ?

Yeah I deny what Libyan people asked for because I mimic USA/France/UK/. I want to gendarme the whole world and intervene as I see fit.

It is Iraq and Afghanistan, in terms of benefits, and that's why it's being "intervened" according to "calls for help", which you could find anywhere in turmoil. That's exactly what the big brothers would have asked for, actually. Interesting.. ^^

Ok, lets put a different spin on the situation. Imagine this was happening in the country where you live. A violent and suppressive government is refusing to relinquish power and his armored columns stand outside your city gates. This dictator has promised "no mercy" to those inside and you see no apparent hope of a successful defense, what do you do? Do you throw down your arms and accept your inevitable fate? Or do you plea for any help, from anyone, to stop a mad man killing you and your loved ones?

It saddens me that when the West doesn't act, its doing too little and when it does act its doing too much. I guess because you disapprove of the Wests actions in terms of foreign policy your eagerly awaiting the day China and India take the crown and for there foreign policies to become doctrine. News flash, they wont be any kinder or nicer either, they to will subscribe to the realities of the world.

Some people see Iraq as an argument against liberal intervention, I just see it as an argument about what happens when intervention is done wrong. I don't see it that why. If we can make the world a better place, even if it is an afterthought of our interests and we have the capacity to achieve it, why shouldn't we?

[LeftEyeNine]

And, eventually, anyway, we'll see how things shape up when it all ends.

I'm itching to turn out to be wrong and misled about our guardian angels' intentions.

Please remind me how ill-mannered I was by then, so that I could take steps to get rid of my prejudices.

[ICantSpellDawg]

And, eventually, anyway, we'll see how things shape up when it all ends.

I'm itching to turn out to be wrong and misled about our guardian angels' intentions.

Please remind me how ill-mannered I was by then, so that I could take steps to get rid of my prejudices.

Lobby Turkey to come into the next one with us. You can keep your eyes on developments and make sure we stay honest.

[LeftEyeNine]

Lobby Turkey to come into the next one with us. You can keep your eyes on developments and make sure we stay honest.

Sure I will.

In Iraq, the lie about oil holds can be made to the average gullible person, but how is Afghanistan a benefit to us? As a police action monger, I was really pissed when we were forced to go into Afghanistan. Terrible terrain for our forces and technology, bad track record with invasion, ignorant as hell population, next to Pakistan with all of its failures to control its own population, and a massive expense. Sure, we have managed to create some unexpected benefits, such as advancing our technology and troop capabilities further and gained a land border with Western China that our military occupies, but that was destined to be a thankless action. I am equally reluctant to do anything against Iran due to their terrain.

Still doesn't make sense why USA has armed forces stationed there.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Sure I will.



Still doesn't make sense why USA has armed forces stationed there.

So you reject our mission in Afghanistan as well? Even Germany and Turkey are fighting in Afghanistan. Are you kidding? Now we can't even defend ourselves against the hostile actions of a sovereign state?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Sure I will.

.

I knew you would, suckaaaa

"Turkey will make the national contribution it deems necessary and appropriate to the applications of UN resolutions 1970 and 1973, taking into account the security of the Libyan people.
To this end, preparations and works are under way in cooperation with our civilian and military structures." -Recep Tayyip Erdogan

Welcome to the coalition! In fact, your leader has stated that the resolution is binding on all UN nations, so he may help get us even more assistance!