Civil War in Libya

[Banquo's Ghost]

Once presented with the choice, Egyptians prefer democracy. Who'd have thought?

(Or, alternatively, Egyptians have been deceived by a Western ploy to steal their oil by dismantling the Egyptian secret police and its systematic torture. )
[CENTER]~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

Bear in mind that Egypt had a pretty solid and professional civic society underneath which is now being called on. Both the judiciary and the military had and maintained a degree of respect through the revolution. The police however, are no so widely hated that few turn up for work.

Libya, by contrast, is a tribal society where all civic institutions have been removed by the dictator.

Would these purely strategic reasons have anything to do with Ireland's unwillingness to be a puppet fighting Britain's wars?

Partly. The Republic's stance on neutrality is complex but largely formed by our historical relationship with Britain. It is also the subject of quite energised debate (this is a good paper on the subject for the interested). For example, we were just as afraid of alliances with other countries which may have provoked Britain. Solution: garb the fence with both hands and sit firmly upon it.

I think Ireland has a great part to play in international affairs based on this "pragmatic" rather than "principled" neutrality. Our military has been very useful as non-threatening intermediaries and aid providers. We have an "underdog" history and tradition that many fractured nations find both comforting and non-threatening. Given the long list of countries that want to prove themselves well-endowed through the wanton murder of entirely unconnected civilians, the Republic can play a small part as a non-belligerent.

On the subject of Libya and debt, I am glad to see that the UK has been so successful at paying off the banking crisis loans, that they can happily spend millions of pounds on flying explosives. Good to know that public services are no longer affected and that the elderly, vulnerable and poor of the United Kingdom are no longer facing cuts because the country has so much surplus money they can afford to throw it away on filling some corners of a foreign field with the elderly, vulnerable and poor of that nation. Once the West has enraged enough people on both sides of the civil war by killing their children and grandmothers, the new Islamist state thus created can provide us with a whole new chapter of the War on Terror (which was in danger of going stale for a moment there).

[Sarmatian]

Libya, by contrast, is a tribal society where all civic institutions have been removed by the dictator.

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

[Noncommunist]

Because that's quite different from old colonial masters coming back to have another go at replacing the leaders they don't like and installing ones they do like to allow their companies preferential position. There's also the fact that western nations treat each other differently, even at poorest relations. There's a reason why German occupation of France was different than German occupation of Yugoslavia. Or occupation of Netherlands to occupation of Poland, or occupation of Denmark to occupation of Russia, or occupation of Belgium to occupation of Greece.

But the British/French occupation was only 8 years from when they captured it from the Italians till the time the king took over. Hardly old imperial masters.

These people will end up hating us more than Gaddafi

I'd rather them figure out civilzation on there own, it becomes tiresome being the bad guy

Figure out civilization? They've been part of civilizations and empires while Britain was occupied by a bunch of celtic chiefdoms let alone America which was occupied by hunter gatherers only beginning to learn cultivation and agriculture.

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

They'd be blown to smithereens anyways.

[Dâriûsh]

Supposedly, Khamis Gadaffi has been assassinated.



Anyway, so this Libyan rebel leader, ex-Gadaffi minister Mustafa Abdul Jalil, he seems pretty friendly to the house of Saud. I can almost see where this is going... we might see Saudi security forces in Libya soon. Probably as soon as they get back from all that shooting of unarmed protesters in Bahrain. The empire expands.

[HoreTore]

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

Yes, that was the same excuse people used to justify the sadism of Pinochet's regime.

Good to see that you're using the same rethoric as the hawks in washington has used, Sarmatian...

[Dâriûsh]

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

I'd like to think that Gadaffi was not the one who found oil in Libya in 1959 to sponsor all that impressive financial growth.

[Sarmatian]

Yes, that was the same excuse people used to justify the sadism of Pinochet's regime.

I'm not trying to justify anything, I just wanna put stuff in perspective, namely that Libya isn't a backwater third world country where population is held in poverty because of will of the dictator. Libya is one of the most advanced African country, on par or even ahead of some EU members.

If could could be sure that rebel government is indeed democratic and that the west isn't in this because of its own interest, I'd be all for it, but those are two really big ifs for me.

Good to see that you're using the same rethoric as the hawks in washington has used, Sarmatian...

? I don't get you...

[ICantSpellDawg]

Another argument between the people who would do nothing versus the people who need to do something.

[Xiahou]

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

We're field-testing the Eurofighter, duh.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

Apparently not regime change...

WASHINGTON -- There is no plan to dislodge the Libyan government or directly help opposition forces, a senior U.S. military official told reporters this afternoon, even as coalition forces move to expand a no-fly zone over Libya.

"We protect civilians," Gen. Carter Ham, the head of U.S. Africa Command, told reporters at the Pentagon via satellite from the command's headquarters in Stuttgart, Germany. "We do not have a mission to support the opposition."

...so years of enforcing a costly no-fly zone over a failed state a la Iraq in the '90s?