Civil War in Libya

**Sarmatian** · 03-21-2011, 15:00

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Libya, by contrast, is a tribal society where all civic institutions have been removed by the dictator.

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

**Noncommunist** · 03-21-2011, 19:06

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Because that's quite different from old colonial masters coming back to have another go at replacing the leaders they don't like and installing ones they do like to allow their companies preferential position. There's also the fact that western nations treat each other differently, even at poorest relations. There's a reason why German occupation of France was different than German occupation of Yugoslavia. Or occupation of Netherlands to occupation of Poland, or occupation of Denmark to occupation of Russia, or occupation of Belgium to occupation of Greece.

But the British/French occupation was only 8 years from when they captured it from the Italians till the time the king took over. Hardly old imperial masters.

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

These people will end up hating us more than Gaddafi

I'd rather them figure out civilzation on there own, it becomes tiresome being the bad guy

Figure out civilization? They've been part of civilizations and empires while Britain was occupied by a bunch of celtic chiefdoms let alone America which was occupied by hunter gatherers only beginning to learn cultivation and agriculture.

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

They'd be blown to smithereens anyways.

**Dâriûsh** · 03-21-2011, 19:29

Supposedly, Khamis Gadaffi has been assassinated.

Anyway, so this Libyan rebel leader, ex-Gadaffi minister Mustafa Abdul Jalil, he seems pretty friendly to the house of Saud. I can almost see where this is going... we might see Saudi security forces in Libya soon. Probably as soon as they get back from all that shooting of unarmed protesters in Bahrain. The empire expands.

**HoreTore** · 03-21-2011, 20:24

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

Yes, that was the same excuse people used to justify the sadism of Pinochet's regime.

Good to see that you're using the same rethoric as the hawks in washington has used, Sarmatian...

**Dâriûsh** · 03-21-2011, 21:02

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

I'd like to think that Gadaffi was not the one who found oil in Libya in 1959 to sponsor all that impressive financial growth.

**Sarmatian** · 03-21-2011, 23:02

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yes, that was the same excuse people used to justify the sadism of Pinochet's regime.

I'm not trying to justify anything, I just wanna put stuff in perspective, namely that Libya isn't a backwater third world country where population is held in poverty because of will of the dictator. Libya is one of the most advanced African country, on par or even ahead of some EU members.

If could could be sure that rebel government is indeed democratic and that the west isn't in this because of its own interest, I'd be all for it, but those are two really big ifs for me.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Good to see that you're using the same rethoric as the hawks in washington has used, Sarmatian...

? I don't get you...

**ICantSpellDawg** · 03-21-2011, 23:30

Another argument between the people who would do nothing versus the people who need to do something.

**Xiahou** · 03-22-2011, 01:50

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 03-22-2011, 03:00

Originally Posted by Xiahou

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

We're field-testing the Eurofighter, duh.

**ICantSpellDawg** · 03-22-2011, 03:20

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

We're field-testing the Eurofighter, duh.

I think that this might not be too far from the truth in a small, cynical way. The Dassault Rafale has received no international buyers since its release - this is a showcase of its cool factor. The Eurofighter as well, even though that has been pretty popular.

Banquo - good article on Irish neutrality. You are starting to see the "neutrality" of nations like Sweden and Switzerland crumble. Hopefully you will join us, not only in action, but in name as well in the near future.

**PanzerJaeger** · 03-22-2011, 03:56

Originally Posted by Xiahou

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

Apparently not regime change...

WASHINGTON -- There is no plan to dislodge the Libyan government or directly help opposition forces, a senior U.S. military official told reporters this afternoon, even as coalition forces move to expand a no-fly zone over Libya.

"We protect civilians," Gen. Carter Ham, the head of U.S. Africa Command, told reporters at the Pentagon via satellite from the command's headquarters in Stuttgart, Germany. "We do not have a mission to support the opposition."

...so years of enforcing a costly no-fly zone over a failed state a la Iraq in the '90s?

**Xiahou** · 03-22-2011, 05:47

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Apparently not regime change...

...so years of enforcing a costly no-fly zone over a failed state a la Iraq in the '90s?

That's just it. If we're not picking sides and don't support regime change... what are we doing? Is the mission to maintain a continuous state of civil war in Libya? I don't get it.