Civil War in Libya

[Fragony]

How awesome all this let's burn the entire Arab world, for the civilians. It isn't like we are really desperate for a jolly good war.

WTH. Is there a genocide going on? Nah. In Sudan, yes. If we HAVE to something out of nothing but compassion bomb things in Sudan. The guy is a mad dog like most arab leaders but what did he ever do to us, yeahyeah Lockerbie get over it

[TinCow]

WTH. Is there a genocide going on? Nah.

So, your basic contention is that we should only intervene after genocide starts, not before?

[edyzmedieval]

According to Mr. Putin, the Libya attacks are a Crusade - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110321/ts_nm/us_libya

[Banquo's Ghost]

Once presented with the choice, Egyptians prefer democracy. Who'd have thought?

(Or, alternatively, Egyptians have been deceived by a Western ploy to steal their oil by dismantling the Egyptian secret police and its systematic torture. )
[CENTER]~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

Bear in mind that Egypt had a pretty solid and professional civic society underneath which is now being called on. Both the judiciary and the military had and maintained a degree of respect through the revolution. The police however, are no so widely hated that few turn up for work.

Libya, by contrast, is a tribal society where all civic institutions have been removed by the dictator.

Would these purely strategic reasons have anything to do with Ireland's unwillingness to be a puppet fighting Britain's wars?

Partly. The Republic's stance on neutrality is complex but largely formed by our historical relationship with Britain. It is also the subject of quite energised debate (this is a good paper on the subject for the interested). For example, we were just as afraid of alliances with other countries which may have provoked Britain. Solution: garb the fence with both hands and sit firmly upon it.

I think Ireland has a great part to play in international affairs based on this "pragmatic" rather than "principled" neutrality. Our military has been very useful as non-threatening intermediaries and aid providers. We have an "underdog" history and tradition that many fractured nations find both comforting and non-threatening. Given the long list of countries that want to prove themselves well-endowed through the wanton murder of entirely unconnected civilians, the Republic can play a small part as a non-belligerent.

On the subject of Libya and debt, I am glad to see that the UK has been so successful at paying off the banking crisis loans, that they can happily spend millions of pounds on flying explosives. Good to know that public services are no longer affected and that the elderly, vulnerable and poor of the United Kingdom are no longer facing cuts because the country has so much surplus money they can afford to throw it away on filling some corners of a foreign field with the elderly, vulnerable and poor of that nation. Once the West has enraged enough people on both sides of the civil war by killing their children and grandmothers, the new Islamist state thus created can provide us with a whole new chapter of the War on Terror (which was in danger of going stale for a moment there).

[Sarmatian]

Libya, by contrast, is a tribal society where all civic institutions have been removed by the dictator.

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

[gaelic cowboy]

Would these purely strategic reasons have anything to do with Ireland's unwillingness to be a puppet fighting Britain's wars?

To some extent but mainly as a means to ensure the stability of the Republic certain groups could use the public outrage to topple the government.

Also the last of the Civil War generation are either very old or passed away by now, they would have never allowed Ireland to join a defence alliance with Britain not after fighting an independence war and a civil war over the very same.

[Noncommunist]

Because that's quite different from old colonial masters coming back to have another go at replacing the leaders they don't like and installing ones they do like to allow their companies preferential position. There's also the fact that western nations treat each other differently, even at poorest relations. There's a reason why German occupation of France was different than German occupation of Yugoslavia. Or occupation of Netherlands to occupation of Poland, or occupation of Denmark to occupation of Russia, or occupation of Belgium to occupation of Greece.

But the British/French occupation was only 8 years from when they captured it from the Italians till the time the king took over. Hardly old imperial masters.

These people will end up hating us more than Gaddafi

I'd rather them figure out civilzation on there own, it becomes tiresome being the bad guy

Figure out civilization? They've been part of civilizations and empires while Britain was occupied by a bunch of celtic chiefdoms let alone America which was occupied by hunter gatherers only beginning to learn cultivation and agriculture.

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

They'd be blown to smithereens anyways.

[Dâriûsh]

Supposedly, Khamis Gadaffi has been assassinated.



Anyway, so this Libyan rebel leader, ex-Gadaffi minister Mustafa Abdul Jalil, he seems pretty friendly to the house of Saud. I can almost see where this is going... we might see Saudi security forces in Libya soon. Probably as soon as they get back from all that shooting of unarmed protesters in Bahrain. The empire expands.

[HoreTore]

According to Mr. Putin, the Libya attacks are a Crusade - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110321/ts_nm/us_libya

No shock there, Putin has a passionate hatred towards all people who rise up against tyranny.

[HoreTore]

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

Yes, that was the same excuse people used to justify the sadism of Pinochet's regime.

Good to see that you're using the same rethoric as the hawks in washington has used, Sarmatian...

[Dâriûsh]

They weren't removed, they weren't there in the first place, unless you consider colonial apparatus as proper civic institutions. Libya used to be a tribal society before Gadaffi but now 86% of the population is urban and civic institutions now, lacking as they may be, are much better than pre-Gaddafi. Libya also has the highest HDI index in Africa (not far behind Portugal and Poland, for comparison purposes), one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa, had 10% GDP growth in 2010 etc...

Good to know it will all be blown to smithereens now...

I'd like to think that Gadaffi was not the one who found oil in Libya in 1959 to sponsor all that impressive financial growth.

[Sarmatian]

Yes, that was the same excuse people used to justify the sadism of Pinochet's regime.

I'm not trying to justify anything, I just wanna put stuff in perspective, namely that Libya isn't a backwater third world country where population is held in poverty because of will of the dictator. Libya is one of the most advanced African country, on par or even ahead of some EU members.

If could could be sure that rebel government is indeed democratic and that the west isn't in this because of its own interest, I'd be all for it, but those are two really big ifs for me.

Good to see that you're using the same rethoric as the hawks in washington has used, Sarmatian...

? I don't get you...

[ICantSpellDawg]

Another argument between the people who would do nothing versus the people who need to do something.

[Xiahou]

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

We're field-testing the Eurofighter, duh.

[ICantSpellDawg]

We're field-testing the Eurofighter, duh.

I think that this might not be too far from the truth in a small, cynical way. The Dassault Rafale has received no international buyers since its release - this is a showcase of its cool factor. The Eurofighter as well, even though that has been pretty popular.

Banquo - good article on Irish neutrality. You are starting to see the "neutrality" of nations like Sweden and Switzerland crumble. Hopefully you will join us, not only in action, but in name as well in the near future.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm just not really sure what we're hoping to accomplish in Libya....

Apparently not regime change...

WASHINGTON -- There is no plan to dislodge the Libyan government or directly help opposition forces, a senior U.S. military official told reporters this afternoon, even as coalition forces move to expand a no-fly zone over Libya.

"We protect civilians," Gen. Carter Ham, the head of U.S. Africa Command, told reporters at the Pentagon via satellite from the command's headquarters in Stuttgart, Germany. "We do not have a mission to support the opposition."

...so years of enforcing a costly no-fly zone over a failed state a la Iraq in the '90s?

[Xiahou]

Apparently not regime change...



...so years of enforcing a costly no-fly zone over a failed state a la Iraq in the '90s?

That's just it. If we're not picking sides and don't support regime change... what are we doing? Is the mission to maintain a continuous state of civil war in Libya? I don't get it.

[Noncommunist]

That's just it. If we're not picking sides and don't support regime change... what are we doing? Is the mission to maintain a continuous state of civil war in Libya? I don't get it.

I think we're planning on just defending any civilians we can.

[Major Robert Dump]

Defending civilians with airstrikes and missles is a really good way to kill the civilians you are defending. Boots on ground is how you defend civilians. Have we learned nothing of the last 20 years?

[Brenus]

"No regime change" and Kosovo was part of Serbia...

[Shibumi]

Defending civilians with airstrikes and missles is a really good way to kill the civilians you are defending. Boots on ground is how you defend civilians. Have we learned nothing of the last 20 years?

What he said.

Good for the Libyans that they have natural resources, so we in the west care. Well, enough to bomb some at least. Simultaneously same thing and worse goes on in other countries without our press hyping it.

Sad to see so many people who believe themselves to be clever so unquestioning.

[Fragony]

So, your basic contention is that we should only intervene after genocide starts, not before?

Well yeah, you don't?

[TinCow]

Well yeah, you don't?

No, I prefer to intervene before thousands are massacred rather than after. Seems a bit more useful that way.

[Viking]

Good for the Libyans that they have natural resources, so we in the west care. Well, enough to bomb some at least. Simultaneously same thing and worse goes on in other countries without our press hyping it.

Libya is full of desert sand and tiny bit of oil, not too much to get there. No other country has a situation similar to that in Libya, so those comparisons do not make sense.

Perhaps the situation in Darfur makes some sense to compare to, though one should really study the cases in detail before drawing such conclusions. Regardless, we have no capability to intervene every conflict in this world, go figure.
I suppose you are also one of those 'who believe themselves to be clever', so start questioning your own viewpoint for a second.

---

Meanwhile, the first loss of allied war-machinery has occurred, as a US warplane crash-lands in Libya. Crew said to be fine.

A US warplane has crash-landed in Libya, a US military spokesman says.

The spokesman, Kenneth Fiddler, told the BBC there was no indication the F-15E Eagle had been brought down by hostile fire.

Both crew members ejected safely after what was believed to be a mechanical failure, US officials say.

The Daily Telegraph newspaper says the plane went down near the rebel stronghold of Benghazi. It follows a third night of allied air strikes.

[Fragony]

No, I prefer to intervene before thousands are massacred rather than after. Seems a bit more useful that way.

Either way we have no business bombing Libyans. They are not a threat, and they never wronged us. Can think of places more deserving

[TinCow]

Either way we have no business bombing Libyans. They are not a threat, and they never wronged us. Can think of places more deserving

I agree that they are not a threat and did not wrong "us." However, I believe that Gadaffi was about to order the wholesale masaccre of tens of thousands of people simply because they no longer supported him as dictator. For me, personally, that is a good enough reason to intervene in the manner that we did.

[Viking]

A story from The Telegraph detailing the crash-landing of the US fighter jet, fitting right into the pro-interventionist propaganda machinery.

Behind him his F15 Strike Eagle was a burning wreck. He had parachuted into a field of sheep somewhere near Benghazi airbase and needed to escape - his fellow crew member had landed in another field nearby.


Raising his hands in the air he called out "OK, OK" to greet the crowd. But he need not have worried.


"I hugged him and said don't be scared we are your friends," said Younis Amruni, 27.

[...]

A queue formed to shake the hand of the airman, as locals thanked him for his role in the attacks.

Witnesses said it was around midnight when they heard two planes streak out of the Libyan sky.

Mohamed Breek came out of his home a couple of hundred yards away to see what was happening above his flower-studded meadow.

"It was on fire," he said. "We didn't hear any shots it just fell from the sky by itself and then there was a big explosion."

[...]

"We are so grateful to these men who are protecting the skies," he said. "We gave him juice and then the revolutionary military people took him away."

[HoreTore]

Defending civilians with airstrikes and missles is a really good way to kill the civilians you are defending. Boots on ground is how you defend civilians. Have we learned nothing of the last 20 years?

It's what we have learned these last two decades, in afghanistan and in iraq, that makes the civillian populations all over the world fearful of US "boots on ground". The civillian population in Libya wants airstrikes, but they have made it pretty damned clear that they don't want american troops involved on the ground.

[Fragony]

I agree that they are not a threat and did not wrong "us." However, I believe that Gadaffi was about to order the wholesale masaccre of tens of thousands of people simply because they no longer supported him as dictator. For me, personally, that is a good enough reason to intervene in the manner that we did.

'Us' is us non-Libyans. Dunno what gotten into Sarkozy I am completely puzzled over what we are to ackomplish there. These rebels hold out pretty well the army who are they anyway, nobody in the army defected as far as I know, why are they so well-armed