Civil War in Libya

[Adrian II]

How so? There are no implications to my question, I was just wondering.

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

[Strike For The South]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

Indeed. I'm all for the Lybian people decidingi what they want but I feel like my fellow westerners should realize it is sometimes better dealing with 1 all powerful tyrant than 000s of semi powerdul ones

[ICantSpellDawg]

Indeed. I'm all for the Lybian people decidingi what they want but I feel like my fellow westerners should realize it is sometimes better dealing with 1 all powerful tyrant than 000s of semi powerdul ones

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

[rory_20_uk]

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

"Fighting" China on this one is not best approached using guns and bullets, but by empowering the people of all these countries. Ensuring that services as Twitter, Facebook, Google+ et al is the way forward. They may be trying to muzzle speech, but more and more they are failing to do so and there are more persons who are trying to circumvent the rules to communicate.

The same thing happened with the USSR - the cost of propping up other countries eventually destroyed them. That China is so jittery about any countries whose people want freedom shows how worried they are about loosing control of their own. No one is backing them, there are no puppet masters and hence playing the nationalist card isn't going to help.

[Vladimir]

Has this been posted? Dead bodies rotting in the sun.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Has this been posted? Dead bodies rotting in the sun.

We've had a couple of instances of this kind of post. This is a PG-13 rated site and pictures of death and extreme violence don't really have a place here. It's pretty obvious that atrocities and death has occurred in Libya and anyone who wants to view such material has only to google it for themselves.

Thank you kindly.

[Vladimir]

That's odd. It was Reuters and kinda backs up some arguments here.

[Adrian II]

We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. Tora Tora Tora.

Spoken like a man. If we don't counter this trend, democracy may come to be regarded as a liability before we know it. I'm sick and tired already of the so-called superiority of authoritarian capitalism being vaunted by impotent politicians and short-sighted economists.

However there is one force working to our advantage: China itself. Remember: the Chinese middle class is always rising, rising, rising.

AII

[HoreTore]

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

I think I'd like an example of a dictatorship China has given support without there being an economic interest from China.

Because I sure as hell can't think of any.

[Centurion1]

I think I'd like an example of a dictatorship China has given support without there being an economic interest from China.

Because I sure as hell can't think of any.

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

[econ21]

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

That's a good question. But I don't think China sees North Korea as an ideological soulmate - for that to be true, North Korea would have to be following a more reformist path like the Chinese themselves. I don't even think the fall of North Korea to the South would worry China on an ideological front - South Korea seems to have so much more in common with China - in terms of economy, culture etc - than North Korea does.

I suspect the Chinese government see North Korea as an unexploded bomb, best left propped up, stable and undisturbed. The worst case scenario is that North Korea tries to take the South down with it, starting a major war and destabilising the world economy. Even if North Korea were to go out with a whimper rather than a bang, I can still see the risk of refugees and it becoming more of a burden to it's neighbour than it is now. I think that's why China has not prodded North Korea to follow it's path since 1978.

[Major Robert Dump]

Haha they have found the daughter Reagan killed in 1985. She is a doctor.

[HoreTore]

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north...ionship/p11097

Got anyone else?

[Centurion1]

http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north...ionship/p11097

Got anyone else?

Yeah N. Korea

Do you even read your articles? The experts in your article suggest a 1.25 billion dollars in their trade deficit is simply ignored by China since N. Korea essentially has no borrowing power. That's money the could have easily made elsewhere.

[Fragony]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

yes it is #agrees

[Papewaio]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

Depends if we mean theocracy or Islamic laws/majority. As long as we don't equate an Islamic state to be automatically a theocracy then we have a few positive examples.

I can think of three large democratic states who have a lot of Muslims, some of them heavy in Islamic laws yet still democracies... All three in the long term trends are doing well... Not as well as their more secular democratic neighbors but better then the local despots of any faith i.e. Compare Malaysia vs Burma

[Adrian II]

I can think of three large democratic states who have a lot of Muslims, some of them heavy in Islamic laws yet still democracies...

You mean there are democracies out there that are democracies? I'm not surprised.

But can you name one islamic state that is a democracy?

AII

[Fragony]

You mean there are democracies out there that are democracies? I'm not surprised.

But can you name one islamic state that is a democracy?

AII

Turkey I guess (it's not an islamic state of course, it's a muslim country)

[Adrian II]

Turkey I guess (it's not an islamic state of course, it's a muslim country)

Right, Turkey is not an islamic state. Its state was funded explicitly on secular principles.

Again, can anyone name an islamic state that is a democracy?

AII

[Fragony]

Right, Turkey is not an islamic state. Its state was funded explicitly on secular principles.

Again, can anyone name an islamic state that is a democracy?

AII

It's inherently impossible asking for one is a bit of a trap, islamic means the full deal, a theocracy can never be democratic as it's religious rule. Muslim countries can be democratic of course, big distinction to be made.

[HoreTore]

I'd say that every democratic State is(and has to be) founded on secularism, but the population's religious feelings are not as relevant(see America).

It's a fine line though.

Norway's constitution, for example, defines Norway as a Christian state. In that sense, a country can of course be Islamic and still be a democracy.

[Centurion1]

Depends if we mean theocracy or Islamic laws/majority. As long as we don't equate an Islamic state to be automatically a theocracy then we have a few positive examples.

I can think of three large democratic states who have a lot of Muslims, some of them heavy in Islamic laws yet still democracies... All three in the long term trends are doing well... Not as well as their more secular democratic neighbors but better then the local despots of any faith i.e. Compare Malaysia vs Burma

any democracy which embraces religion and endorses it is always doomed to failure and will remain a joke in my eyes.

indonesia is one, you robably included turkey but you shouldnt because of their history, and im not sure of your third.... pakistan? The country which bows to some pashtun tribes in the mountains and fears its ever growing neighbor? Pakistan was at its most stable with Musharaff now i have nightmares it will collapse and its nukes will disappear to resurface in some american or european city.

[Papewaio]

any democracy which embraces religion and endorses it is always doomed to failure and will remain a joke in my eyes.

indonesia is one, you robably included turkey but you shouldnt because of their history, and im not sure of your third.... pakistan?

The third one is the only one I directly mentioned.

Turkey, Indonesia & Malaysia... of course the last two have to explain the conundrum of Singapore their neighbour.

The other side of the trend is that most of the successful Non-European democracies are ex-British colonies...

BTW
Australia would be considered both Western and Asian depending on how one slices the data. I'd say 2/3rds to 3/4trs Western but the region we are in has a massive impact on uptake of immigrants and food.

[HoreTore]

I believe you just ignored south america, pape....

[Papewaio]

I believe you just ignored south america, pape....

Which of them have large Muslim populations? Nope... not central to the main arguement.

The side bar of worlds most successful democracies... I don't think of any in South America that others model themselves after, quality of life is still not up there...yet. Brazil is up and coming and may prove a few good things to come... but then again the Carribean nations have a lot that are doing much much better... I wonder who is the head of state for a lot of those...

[Fragony]

'Quite the contrary, Islamism as a political force wasreformist in its own rights. I believe I have referred to Sayyid Qutb more than once, whose writings were a major inspiration to Ayman al-Zawahiri and Anwar al-Awlaki. Additionally, I believe that Osama bin Laden himself used to read Qutb's works as well.'

Truth in that, but what he modernised is the islam regarding the concept of a state, you could call it a reformation but I call it a modernisation. I have some stuff from him here (not easy to get) but my knowledge of the islam itself is too poor to get into that. But I do know political theory and islamism is the ultra-orthodox being made future-proof, but ultra-orthodox it is

[Centurion1]

I believe you just ignored south america, pape....

Have you ever been to South America. Even Brazil its most promising nation is still not somewhere i would trade living in the west for. South America is populated by tinpot dictators and corruption runs rampant in every government there.

[Noncommunist]

Have you ever been to South America. Even Brazil its most promising nation is still not somewhere i would trade living in the west for. South America is populated by tinpot dictators and corruption runs rampant in every government there.

While some countries in South America like Venezuela, Ecuador, and Bolivia are certainly leaning towards dictatorship, all of South America is some sort of democracy, just weaker in some places.

[Kralizec]

Malaysia may not be an islamic state in the strict sense of the word, but it's not an examplary secular democracy either. It's illegal even for nominal muslims to convert to another religion (this includes cases where a man decides to become a muslim, and the children are classified as muslims by default - regardless of their or their mother's opinion) and government persecution of the Hindu minority is pretty well documented.

[Centurion1]

The third one is the only one I directly mentioned.

Turkey, Indonesia & Malaysia... of course the last two have to explain the conundrum of Singapore their neighbour.

The other side of the trend is that most of the successful Non-European democracies are ex-British colonies...

BTW
Australia would be considered both Western and Asian depending on how one slices the data. I'd say 2/3rds to 3/4trs Western but the region we are in has a massive impact on uptake of immigrants and food.

East Asian with American Influencers tend to do well to.

Japan, South Korea.

I'm beginning to see a trend here.