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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Indisputably alive... rather a sweeping statement for a zygote.

    Roughly 1/4 pregnancies spontaneously miscarry, often due to massive genetic defects. These zygotes would never fulfil the criteria for being alive as they are unable to function independently, nor reach maturity, let alone reproduce themselves.

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Indisputably alive... rather a sweeping statement for a zygote.

    Roughly 1/4 pregnancies spontaneously miscarry, often due to massive genetic defects. These zygotes would never fulfil the criteria for being alive as they are unable to function independently, nor reach maturity, let alone reproduce themselves.

    Nonsense. A zygote is a living cell. It is not a rock.
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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Nonsense. A zygote is a living cell. It is not a rock.
    And along those lines, does life even begin at conception? Aren't the egg and the sperm already alive? A new genome is certainly formed, but I'd think the life is already there.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Nonsense. A zygote is a living cell. It is not a rock.
    So is a neutrophil. So was the majority of my lunch. Just after death, most of the body is still living cells.

    A living cell is not the same as a living organism.

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Nonsense. A zygote is a living cell. It is not a rock.
    Sperms are cells, they are alive. Does that mean that when I masturbate I'm committing genocide?

    I'm pro-abortion, but within limits. Legal until fetus becomes conscious. It's that simple. (Not counting when it is serious hazard for mother's life, in case of rape etc...)

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Sperms are cells, they are alive. Does that mean that when I masturbate I'm committing genocide?
    For some reason, you appear to be extrapolating my argument to characterise me as pro-life.

    Cells are alive. What that status confers in regard to rights is the subject of this debate. You posit the idea that rights come with consciousness. I would disagree, since that's not something that can easily be measured. I am happy with the idea that rights accrue on the basis of viability, which is the position taken by the vast majority of legal systems.
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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Legal until fetus becomes conscious.
    When's that?
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    For some reason, you appear to be extrapolating my argument to characterise me as pro-life.

    Cells are alive. What that status confers in regard to rights is the subject of this debate. You posit the idea that rights come with consciousness. I would disagree, since that's not something that can easily be measured. I am happy with the idea that rights accrue on the basis of viability, which is the position taken by the vast majority of legal systems.
    So if someone burns my hand and kills some of the cells in my body he will answer for murder? That's pretty thin...

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    When's that?
    IIRC, 14 weeks...

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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    IIRC, 14 weeks...
    Source?
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Source?
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    So if someone burns my hand and kills some of the cells in my body he will answer for murder? That's pretty thin...


    I'd agree.

    What we have here is, to paraphrase, a failure to communicate. Instructively, it shows the devilry inherent in this debate, where people use otherwise quite clear terms to muddy the waters, 'life' being pre-eminent among these confusions.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    So if someone burns my hand and kills some of the cells in my body he will answer for murder? That's pretty thin...
    It is not murder unless you kill all the cells in the organism, or destroy the conscious part. For instance, if someone incinerated your body, that would be murder.
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  13. #13
    But it was on sale!! Scienter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    In short, abortion is an unfortunate reality in an unfair world.
    Beskar is right. No one wants to have an abortion, it is not a decision taken lightly.

    Further, our laws should not be based upon the religious beliefs of a group of citizens. The decision to have an abortion should be up to the pregnant woman, her partner (if he is involved in her life), her doctor, and her clergy person if she is religious. It shouldn't be dictated by law. I agree with some of the others above that there is a certain point that abortions should not be allowed. However, I also believe that when a woman is early enough in her pregnancy, she should be provided with swift access to abortion services and not be faced with heavy handed attempts to guilt her into changing her mind (i.e. ultrasound bills, bills requiring doctors to read scientifically invalid "facts" about abortion, etc). Women are not emotional infants who lack the agency to make their own decisions.

    Reproductive rights policy in the US is beyond screwed up right now. The vast majority of women who have abortions are not haphazardly using it as a method of birth control. Contraception fails sometimes. Further, if people are not properly educated on HOW to use a contraceptive device, it has an increased likelihood of failing. The majority of women who get abortions have incomes that are under the Federal poverty level. Policymakers in this country seek to chip away at access to abortion, which, like it or not, is currently legal in the United States. On top of that, they also seek to reduce access and affordability of contraceptives to people who could not otherwise afford them. We give mountains of cash to abstinence based education in public schools, some of which provide blatantly false information. Some states seek to define the Birth Control Pill as an abortifacient, despite scientific evidence to the contrary. This is so, so wrong. If we want to reduce the number of abortions, the logical and realistic thing to do would be to increase access, education, and affordability of contraceptives.

    People can get on their moral high horses about abstinence all they want. The reality of life is that people are going to have sex. People in the US need to get over themselves and realize this. Reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies through contraception = fewer abortions.
    Last edited by Scienter; 03-08-2011 at 17:06. Reason: typos

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    I don't understand the logic with basing it off functioning independently though. A lot of babies born the normal way still end up hooked up on machines keeping them alive for a while. What about babies born prematurely? Does the fact that they were born prematurely mean they can't be killed (or whatever you want to call it) in the time period when if they had not been born prematurely, they would still have been in the womb and could have been aborted?

    tbh I find the whole abortion argument kind of surreal. I think many of these "reasoned" and "logical" argument for abortion will one day be looked at the same way when we today look at the "reasoned" and "logical" arguments people gave to support institutions like slavery. Screw the greater social good, it's just wrong.*

    *disclaimer - this is just a gut feeling I have on the matter, and people will no doubt think it is ridiculous, but I think this is one of those issues where peoples norms are very much defined by those of their particular time and place, and those from another time and place might take a very different perspective...
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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Rather than replying to other posts, I felt tempted to start from "scratch" and write down a few of my considerations:

    #1. It is not a human right to be born. All the theoretically possible combinations of DNA we cannot "allow" for natural reasons - there is not enough room for all of them. This way of speaking also concludes that if two humans share the same DNA, they are in fact the same person - which is apparently not true.

    #2. a) We have no empirical reasons (including everyday observations) to believe that human life start at one point. There is a point of fertilisation that "inevitably" leads to what we will later, without much doubt in our minds, call a human being. However, if we were to look at a newly fertilised egg cell in a microscope next to another cell that was not of human origin, the untrained eye would most likely not be able to tell them apart. 'Common sense' will thus lead us to the conclusion that neither of these are human beings - as long as we are not being told anything else, something which would just cloud our judgement from this perspective.

    #2. b) At later stages in the development, we would see a creature with features that what we understand as human beings have - and we could thus be inclined to conclude that, indeed, there is something human about this creature - and perhaps, we could call it a human being.


    #3. a) The reason one should not kill the unborn humans, I must assume is for the same reasons that it is not allowed to kill babies. We are not allowed to kill babies, because they are considered human beings. The question is then when a human being becomes a human being.

    #3. b) From #2., it is demonstrated that empiricism cannot lead us to a clear cut definition of what a human being is - we may at best get a vague sensation. One could attempt to see whether there is a point at which a human being becomes self-aware. However, this point could be well after birth. It is also clear that humans kill animals with ease without asking them whether they are self-aware or not, so self-awareness seems not to be a criterium by itself.


    It is then clear to me that one cannot hope for well defined ethics on this issue, for now and perhaps for ever, otherwise we get a revelation from the thunder god Þórr telling us that life starts 453 hours after conception. Thus we must accept dealing with grey areas. I am not too concerned about this; I personally cannot recall things that go back to myself crawling at the floor. Probably, we are well within in the safe zone when we are dealing with fetuses - if self-awareness matters. If it doesn't, well, then it is clearly the moral feelings of the adults that we need to protect rather than the fetuses themselves, which is dubious - to put it mildly.
    Last edited by Viking; 02-25-2011 at 18:34.
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  16. #16
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backdoor Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    I don't understand the logic with basing it off functioning independently though. A lot of babies born the normal way still end up hooked up on machines keeping them alive for a while. What about babies born prematurely? Does the fact that they were born prematurely mean they can't be killed (or whatever you want to call it) in the time period when if they had not been born prematurely, they would still have been in the womb and could have been aborted?
    Taking PVC:s suggestion about "hedging your bet", it either forces you to try to save those natural miscarriages (leaving people to die is illegal in most countries) or still makes you consider a embryo as something lesser than a person. Really, no position succeds with being fully coherent on the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    tbh I find the whole abortion argument kind of surreal. I think many of these "reasoned" and "logical" argument for abortion will one day be looked at the same way when we today look at the "reasoned" and "logical" arguments people gave to support institutions like slavery. Screw the greater social good, it's just wrong.*
    They'll be busy with more complicated questions. Is it wrong to genetically (this is done before the egg is fertilized in this case) create a functional human body without a brain and harvest it for the organs? It certainly feels uncomfortable for me, but try to have a black and white argument on the issue.
    You already admitted that it isn't a human being and never was. So how many brain functions can we add before it becomes a human?

    Besides, the pill and abortion gave females the control of their own sexuality. They also got a bit more power nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    *disclaimer - this is just a gut feeling I have on the matter, and people will no doubt think it is ridiculous, but I think this is one of those issues where peoples norms are very much defined by those of their particular time and place, and those from another time and place might take a very different perspective...
    Maybe, but it feels more to be an issue like suecide instead of slavery. Certainly nothing to celebrate, but to accept that it exists and happens is still better than denying it. For example, mothers killing their children dropped to around half when they stopped getting executed for that crime. Need I mention that suecide was considered worse than murder?
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