first time a serious challenge - how to beat the romani? - (battle diff.: very hard)

[Kleitos]

play everytime with hard campaign difficulty and very hard battle difficulty - as Baktria, Epeiros, Koinon Hellenon and Pahlava - which was a very different style - enjoyed it very much. ..a real guerilla war.

now i play with the makedons...thought it would be quite the same as with Ep and KH, ..but this time i waited apparently to long to attack the romans. ..spent this time more time and costs to conquer asia minor and the aegaen and to build as quickly as possible the big mining centers before.
so the romans now have already a lot of pedites extraordinarii, samnitici milites and triarii - which i did not encounter so much in my previous Ep an KH campaigns.

also i made this time apparently a stratecically wrong decision - and did not attack the romans first in the south (Taras) but because with Ep and KH they retreated into the north so i was more or less forced to fight in the end so far in the dark cold north. ..but that is another story.

after the first real battle with the romani - where i was victorious (defending near resently conquered Patavium) - but unlike the battles in the east against Pontos and the Seleucids it was a Phyrrhic victory - i did read the guide phalanx related tactics. (but found there more then once statements that the romans are easily to beat - until know i had to agree with it - but i assume they dont refer on very hard battel difficulty and maybe not an developed roman army.
so i tried after that V.T. Marvins suggestion ( https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-sarissam)with ) with less Pahalangitai shorter line and more depth.

(really had the problem in the first battle with 6 phalangitai in first line that i was attacked almost only on the flanks and most of the Ph´s just stood around)

so my second real battle with the romans was west of Segestica - i had more soldiers (about 150 more - army size is with phalanxes 62men) and
2 katapeltai units (the smaller expensive ones ...dont know the exact name now).
2 Pezhetairoi
1 Argyraspidai
1 Peltastai Makedonikoi
1 Hypaspistai
3 Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi (i like them, this time i only use these guys instead of thureophoroi
4 Hoplitai
2 Akontistai (which where only intended to serve as garrison troops in Segestica)
2 Hetairoi (generals) and
3 Lonchophoroi Hippeis

and lead to an "average defeat" - in my situation there actually a crushing defeat (my loss about 84%, romans loss about 77%) ..because there was almost nothing left of my troops and the romans still had a lot of Pedites ..they where so hard to beat. so my whole western army was gone

the second battle with shorter line and more depth was in that case not effective: the romani did not try to envelope my flanks so that i could pepper their sides with my javelins. they were holding their line and the Pedites, Samnitici and Triarii just were so arduous and almost unbeatable - although i managed to outflank them with my Cavalry and charged them from behind - ..but only after i had also very hard fighting behind with the roman Cavalry there.

..to keep it realistic i dont want to go back and start from a saving before the attack in segestica and start the attack in Taras..

im really positively surprised to have a serious challenge now - but would also be glad for some experiences/suggestions from other Hellene lovers.


thanks,
Kleitos

[vollorix]

I´m no fan of "very hard" battles, but thats another story.
I see not one slinger in your army composition - you want to kill pedites and triari spam, you better bring some with you, i´d say.
Shock cavalry is nice, lonchos are cool, but with all that "vh" bonuses...well, you could "import" some eles ( though, i have no idea if macs can recruit them outside of India at all ).
Do you like mercs? I´d hire lots of Raetians, and perhaps a unit of Gaesatae - fear factor, superb killers + 2 hp.

[Kleitos]

thanks vollorix - ...i had three slinger units in my first battle with the romans ..but they played almost no role in it ..(no effect on armored pedites just some skirmishers i got with em) ..thats why i spent much money for the katapeltai - they did some serious damage in the second battle: 12% loss ..i expected the romans to attack me (since they had a general) but just stood there and waited for the end of the bombardment.

but still the outcome of the battle finally was devastating for me.

i guess its really that at very hard battles with developed roman troops (not just hastati and principes but the Pedites and Samnitici) the morale bonus is the

actually i like it very much the vh battles - until now finally never a problem - ..for me its more interesting. ..ok - the battles need mikromanagement (specially with the Pahlavans - horse archers, no infantry - with much use of the pause button).

but this time with roman troops full of Pedites and likewise my campaign really stagnate.

well with Epeiros i had elephants - and they did some good job on the romans ..but as i said - the romans were not as developed as now.. the troops mostly consisting of hastati and principes. ..no possibility to recruit them now.

actually i seldom use mercenaries (just when really needed) ..Gaesatae - are these the Galatikoi Wild men infantry? ..those i hired sometimes ..in past campaigns and now in the east - they are very effective but also expensive.

[vollorix]

Well, slingers can be very usefull if you let them bombard heavily armoured enemy units from behind - the shield value of "4" + armour value of "15" requires a slinger to have at least attack value of "9" ( wich would mean about 7 chevrons! ) to do some damage on troops like Pedites or Triarii from the front ). Also, you can use them to lure out enemy cavalry, and then countercharge it with your superiour Macedonian Hetairoi. Don´t waste them on light units, for those you better rely on archers.
I mentioned Raetic Axemen because they got armour piercing "pila" style missiles and the axes, though their shield value of only "3" makes them a bit weak against Roman pilas, but using them as shock troopers, who also would easily take any Roman cavalry out, is the best way ( flanking, throwing their deadly missiles into Roman backs, then engaging; plus - they got very good stamina, which means their lethality is efficient for longer time resulting in very good kill ratio ). Gaesatae are the Celtic "wild men", yes they are expencive, but since you need quality troops, they are great in killing anything on the battlefield, except phalantigai from the front, perhaps. They use celtic longswords with high lethality of 0,025 and are very hardy too. Do not use those mercs to fight Pedites ( those got "ap" swords as well and will kill to many of your guys ), but instead let them run into your pikes, while you must protect the flanks of the phalanx. Actually, Pedites are the troops you should aim with your Katapeltai most of the time, because once Triari are exausted, they pose no real danger to anyone, but also exausted troops of yours, who are desperatlly trying to break those veterans, and your cavalry, of course.

[Kleitos]

well i guess there will be seldom a chance to shoot with slingers at Pedites from behind.. with the mobile Pahlavans Horse Archers i did this all the time ..very effective. ...exhausting the enemy, shooting in their rear, ..sounds not very honorable ..well yea what to do else with numeral overwhelming armies.

to hurt the Pedites the katapeltai (as long the terrain allows it) are ideal ..but as mentioned above although they lost 12% from their best armored soldiers in this battle - afterwards the difficulty was how to beat them with the rest of the army.

if chance to get some of these naked wild men infantry i recruit them (also with mercenary cretan archers) but i guess its more about how to use the phalanxes together with other elite infantry and how to deploy them.

..well after my first post - i decided, however to open a new front in southern italy (no timetravel) ..the AI for the romani allows it - they act not very intelligent - a welcome compensation for their immense morale bonus in vh battles - ..so now i conquered Taras and the rich Rhegion - (the AI concentrated the bulk of the romani troops in the north ..instead of taking back Segestica they divided and even sent troops to the cold and dark barbarian provinces) ..i just try to defend Segestica but conquer the romans from the south... seems that this will work.

but anyhow - with the Pahlavan campaign this Makedonian one is the most exciting campaign for me until now with EB - ..really surprised that it will be that challenging .. i like vh Battles :-)

[Ca Putt]

I'm no VH expert but from my experience AP weapons are the way to go against pedex romani.
that means for a hellen(ist)ic army:
replace lonchophoroi with hetairoi, Prodromoi, Tessalians or the like as they(LH) cannot play their advantages against romans(big shield, mediocre staying power)
generaly play a bit unrealistic in terms of army composition: more slinger(as mentioned) more cav less normal infantry(thus anythign that's neither a phalangite nor has a AP weapon) a unit of thorakitai or the like may be usefull to catch and kill the odd unit of roman cavalry but apart from that not the most usefull option against the romans.
phalangites are actually not too bad when fighting romans as they soak up a lot of the javelins damage. -> which makes it safer for your flanking troops

you could also mount some amphibious siege parties that distract the romans from the front, works every time ^^. tho that leads to romans spamming neitos and celtic levies^^

ps well getting the idea on your own is probably best :D(concerning opening a second front)

[Kleitos]

@Ca Putt - i have to ask: these abbreviations - do you have a thread maybe somewhere where they are listed? (it´s not the first time i rack my brain about them ;-) ..maybe for you guys a stupid question - but since english is not my native tongue and most here play EB longer then me and such abbreviations seem familiar to you .. what are AP weapons?

what do you mean with amphibious siege parties?


..another thing - in the tactical advice thread somewhere stood when attacking with phalangitai: disable guard mode. ..no further explanation. ..i must admit that i never used this button, or better only heard the units shout something if used - but saw no difference in behaviour. ..now i tried in battle - but is this function for any good? is there some difference, and how in wich situations you use it?

[Kleitos]

ok - regarding guard mode: i´ll take it back - just came to the idea to type this keyword in and found a lot of interesting threads about that ...and really "scientific analysis" about this :-) ..very interesting - im really glad to found this great RTW modification and this great EB RTW community here.

[vollorix]

AP = armour piercing; means that armour of a unit is halfed when it is attacked by a unit with "ap" ability. It can be quite devastating, especially on units which mostly rely on their heavy armour rather then defence skills.
Pedites Extr., Samnite Milites, Thracian Peltasts, Thracian Elite Swordmen, Falxmen/Bastarne, most Iberian units ( armed with falcata swords ), Bodyguard Cavalry units, Heavy Cavalry, some Medium Cavalry, etc. etc.
Here you can take a look at all units with their stats: http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?

[Kleitos]

thanks for the info and link Vollorix :-) - a very useful tool .. finally something where one can compare also the different missile units ..range, ammo - and what have you

[Molinaargh]

Hold the enemy units with phalanxes and flank with more phalanxes. Cavalry charges are almost useless in VH, as are missiles.

Levy phalanxes are good enough, as they can be easily retrained and you can end up with a highly experienced army that way.


These are unexperienced but you can get full stacks of gold chevrons after enough battles.