It's hard not to become a Euro sceptic

[Andres]

Euro MPs vote 1,500-euro monthly raise for office expenses.

Lawmakers in the 736-member European Parliament voted Thursday to give themselves an extra 1,500 euros each per month for staff and office expenses, a decision the Greens slammed as "wrong-headed" in a time of austerity.

The decision will increase the overall parliament budget by almost 13.25 million euros this year.

Greens budgetary spokeswoman Helga Truepel said lawmakers were "clearly out of touch with fiscal realities" and said the "irresponsible vote sends completely the wrong signal" to cash-strapped people across the continent.

The decision was backed by Euro MPs from the left and the right of the European political spectrum.

European Union institutions have been locked in a losing battle with the bloc's 27 member states, which successfully chopped in half a planned increase for 2011 under pressure from British Prime Minister David Cameron.

The states are also pushing for inflation-only increases over the remainder of the decade, with huge cuts sought in operating expenses for the EU's myriad institutions in the 2012 budget, affecting trips, meetings and research regularly criticised by eurosceptics for ploughing millions into securing commonsense conclusions.

EU administrative costs for 2011 are expected to hit 8.3 billion euros, or 5.7 percent of a total budget running to 126.5 billion euros.

European Parliament MPs are paid 7,956.87 euros gross per month, with another 19,709 euros already set aside before the increase for staff and other office expenses.

The parliament meanwhile said it "should" restrict its own budget in 2012, entering a "consolidation phase" with no increase in 2012 beyond inflation.

"We must not exceed inflation... We would like a savings budget," said Portuguese conservative Jose Manuel Fernandes, who is leading parliament preparations for its 2012 sums.

It's not like their current wages were something to complain about, hm?

So, that's the signal our European MP's are giving to the general public.

Good to know that the part of my tax money that goes to Europe is being well spent.

[Fragony]

FASCIST!

Why is there doubt, in your heart

(and ot well yeah)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yeah, well....MEPs need a salary and they need to have a staff. This itself is not a problem. Their expenses are in line with the European standard. Slightly lower than the costs of British or Italian parliamentarians, slightly higher than those of Sweden or France.

It is of questionable timing to increase expenses in the current austere climate. That's just a pr disaster. Frankly telling of the autism of the European Parliament.
Then again, these increases have been in the pipeline for almost a decade. The Lisbon Treaty increases the tasks and responsibilities of the European Parliament, thus there was always going to be an increase in expenses and facilities. These had to be delayed in order for the Lisbon Treaty to be ratified and implemented.



Europe should cut costs of the EP. Not so by any wages of MEPs, but by ending the monthly exodus to Strasbourg, by decreasing the amount of MEPs, and by limiting the amount of languages spoken. Working languages ought to be reduced to just one. Obviously, French, the language of Bruxelles. The EP is in favour of forcing the unemployed to search for jobs abroad, expecting them to simply aquire the foreign language of the country of the job on offer. Obviously, the MEPs will want to set the right example. Their being on the whole very well qualified, it should be no problem for them to do what they would have an unemployed fifty year old steel worker do.

Good to know that the part of my tax money that goes to Europe is being well spent.

Technically, it is not your tax money at all. It is everybody else's tax money. This is because the money will be spend in Brussels, on Brussels offices, taxis, hotels, staff. Belgium is gaining financially from this, and Andres' taxes will go down because of it.

Once more it is shown that the EU is nothing but a covert pan-European power grab by our Belgae overlords.

[InsaneApache]

Give it up Louis. You know it's time to turn to the dark side.

[Furunculus]

"Re: It's hard not to become a Euro sceptic"

really? i have never found it to be much of s struggle.

[Brenus]

Well, I see nothing strange in raising their salaries…

The actual European Union is built on a fraud is lead by Conserva-thieves (US)/Liberals (EU) that are keen to use taxpayers’ money for their own good. All the recommendations issued by this body are in favour of taking money from the poor to give to the rich.
From selling national enterprises built by ours ancestors (with their money) to the “market” (read: their friends, relatives and families), restraining the democratic right of the population (when it is not denying it as for the Treaty of Lisbon) to the obligation for the states to borrow money on the “market” (read: the Private Banks, yes, the same that were bailed out with the taxpayers’ money) at a rate fixed by a office controlled by the banks, all is done to sell Europeans to the market.
And the most funny things is the Banksters will borrow the money from the European Central Bank at around 0 % and impose a rate up to 14 % based on their evaluation of the country economy and, of course, policies

Few examples:
The un-elected body (the Commission) will first see if the budget of each nation matches with the Stability Pact. If not if will be automatic penalties. The fact is Finances are not in the EC’s field of action but are still the Countries’ prerogatives. But hey, who cares?
To impose the automatism of the penalties (this is too openly not democratic) they want to introduce a “rule of inverse majority”. All right, if 2/3 of the assembly doesn’t vote against the sanctions will be imposed.
Simple: In casual language if 2/3 of the Parliament doesn’t oppose a law, the law is passed…
That is a new democracy marching for you…

Europe can yet decide to put penalties on Countries if they don’t follow the rules imposed by the European Central Bank (28/10/2010 directive)…
So, if an elected Government want to increase the minimum wage and the Director of the European Central Bank decides it is against the “rules”, poof, penalties fall upon it.
And this even if the country’s economy is in good health. It is a matter of rules.
Of course, the un-elected Commission will decide who break the rules, following vague “guide lines” or “economical indicators” whatever it means.

So, de facto, the Conserva-thieve (US)/Liberal (EU) Europe is enforcing rules to prevent more progressive/left Governments to act on their proposals. It is a constant effort to dismantle and destroy the Social Right and Protection gained by the past generations under the pretext of “modernisation” and “realism” and “market laws”.
They disguised this return to the 19th Century under new vocabulary. “Self employed” for daily workers, “Big Society” for no more Protection from the State for the weak and the poor etc.
Their favourite tactic is to change the words meaning.
The “rigidities” are always what protects the workers, pensioners and employees. This just follows blindly the IFM policies, policies that never ever work but are still the Conserva-thieves (US)/ Liberals (EU)’s economical Bible.
To get money when you lose your job will become an allowance to push people to find a job (basically guys, if you loose your job and don’t find one, it is because you are a lazy scrounger) and linked to your effort to find one or a formation. Forgetting of course that you paid for this “right” when you were working…
And, of course, Hedge Funds will become the rules for Pension, as they are so efficient to make money and disappear.
All this good money out of the “Private” sector, so close, so tempting and still so far, out of reach… The “democratic” Europe has to do something about it and give he money to its legitimate owners, the Rich.

I was, and still, a Pro-European. I still believe in a democratic Europe. But, with the imposition against the will of countries (in which 2 of the founders of the EU – France and Holland) of the European Constitution camouflaged in the Lisbon Treaty, the EU is going of the road of a soft fascist state where all opposition to the rules imposed by an economical model will be banned by “laws”.

[Andres]

Yeah, well....MEPs need a salary and they need to have a staff. This itself is not a problem.

Oh, they need staff? And what are those legions of European Civil Servants for?? To play with their thumbs while the poor MEPs use their own money to hire people who actually work?

Civil Servants who, btw and completely aside because it's of course "populism", don't have to pay taxes in my country but pay some joke of a Eurotax instead.

Their expenses are in line with the European standard. Slightly lower than the costs of British or Italian parliamentarians, slightly higher than those of Sweden or France.

I don't know about Parliamentarians abroad, but those in Belgium, and we have legions of those (all coming from with nepotism infested political families, or should we just call a spade a spade an call them the new Belgian nobility and, why not, abolish this so called democracy and make seats in Belgian parliaments (all 5 (or is it 6 or 7?)) hereditary; also absenteism gallore in our Parliaments!), get extraordinary wages, at least by the standards of the common taxpayer (maybe not in comparison with other highly paid nitwits). 20 years in Belgian Parliament is also considered to be a full career and gives them the right to get a full pension, which is about 3 or 4times the max pension of a common employee. Not to mention all others bonuses and benefits these clowns get. But I digress, it's not about Belgian robber gangs here.

So, no, Louis, European MEPs getting similar salaries and gifts as other shameless grabbers of taxmoney is not exactly a justification in my book.

It is of questionable timing to increase expenses in the current austere climate. That's just a pr disaster.

Questionable timing? You sound like an old school CVP member now. "Questionable timing"? What's next? "They should look into it and address the issue" and then form a Commission?

It's not "questionable timing"; it's spitting and slapping in the face of the common man who pays his taxes and at the same time showing him the middlefinger and laughing in his face.

Frankly telling of the autism of the European Parliament.

Autism? It's not autism. They know very well what they're doing.

It's a level of arrogance that makes you wonder if the electric chair is punishment enough for them.

Then again, these increases have been in the pipeline for almost a decade. The Lisbon Treaty increases the tasks and responsibilities of the European Parliament, thus there was always going to be an increase in expenses and facilities. These had to be delayed in order for the Lisbon Treaty to be ratified and implemented.

Oh yeah, the treaty they used to sneakily impose a constitution the general public doesn't want. The general public being those same taxpayers that are now being spit at by their representatives.

Europe should cut costs of the EP. Not so by any wages of MEPs, but by ending the monthly exodus to Strasbourg, by decreasing the amount of MEPs, and by limiting the amount of languages spoken. Working languages ought to be reduced to just one.

Oh no, we're not going to cut in the wages of MEPs. Oh no, the idea alone!!! Just like all politicians, they tell the people that they'll have to do extra efforts to get the EU out of the crisis, but of course, our benevolent politicians won't do a bit of effort themselves. What horrible thoughts! A politician cutting in his own salary! Who do those petty taxpayers think they are.

In France, they used to chop off the heads of the classes who thought like that.

Obviously, French, the language of Bruxelles.

Thnx for the cheap provocation. English will do. And if it really has to be the language of Bruxelles, then you'll have to learn Arabic.

Technically, it is not your tax money at all. It is everybody else's tax money. This is because the money will be spend in Brussels, on Brussels offices, taxis, hotels, staff. Belgium is gaining financially from this, and Andres' taxes will go down because of it.

And housing prices in the region where Andres wants to live reach the sky, because of civil servants who don't have to pay the same taxes as Andres and the taxes they pay, don't even go to the country that is so kind to have them as guests.

Once more it is shown that the EU is nothing but a covert pan-European power grab by our Belgae overlords.

Europe should stop seeing Belgium as an example.

[InsaneApache]

I was, and still, a Pro-European. I still believe in a democratic Europe. But, with the imposition against the will of countries (in which 2 of the founders of the EU – France and Holland) of the European Constitution camouflaged in the Lisbon Treaty, the EU is going of the road of a soft fascist state where all opposition to the rules imposed by an economical model will be banned by “laws”.

I too used to be committed to the EEC but then it changed. To the EC. Then it changed again. To the EU. That's not what we signed up for. Give it time and everyone who doesn't work for the bastards will hate them and all their works....

[HoreTore]

Pocket change.

I don't care at all.

[InsaneApache]

Pocket change.

I don't care at all.

I wonder why?

[HoreTore]

I wonder why?

Because the sum is so tiny its completely irrelevant. Like whining over an EU MP not picking up a 50-cent coin he lost.

[InsaneApache]

Oh and I was thinking it was because you don't have to pay towards it!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh and I was thinking it was because you don't have to pay towards it!

Europe provides such stellar regulation and beneficial services, that even non-members Switzerland and Norway pay substantial contributions.

HT does pay towards this, even if Norway is not an EU member. Taxation without representation, as it were.


*fingers around in Andres' wallet, checking for lose change*

[InsaneApache]

That's great. Didn't know that. What a brilliant Ponzi scheme. I wonder who thought that one up, pure genius.

[HoreTore]

Oh and I was thinking it was because you don't have to pay towards it!

What Louis said.

We pay the EU money, and the EU trades with us like we were a member. We also adopt all the rules, regulations and standardizations the EU comes up with, mostly because a tiny export country like us craves standardization.

[Louis VI the Fat]

That's great. Didn't know that. What a brilliant Ponzi scheme. I wonder who thought that one up, pure genius.

Why, Norway and Switzerland did, of course. The EU is so benefitial to members that even non-members want to share in it. Have you got any idea how valuable European legislation and regulation is to Norway? Most of what is decided in Brussels is adopted instantly in Oslo. I say we ought to get a good deal more contribution form Norway than we are currently receiving. Although on the upside, we get to decide Norwegian policy in this manner. An oversees colony, as it were.



*checks legal possibilities to tax the piggy bank of Andres jr. *

[Furunculus]

Few examples:
The un-elected body (the Commission) will first see if the budget of each nation matches with the Stability Pact. If not if will be automatic penalties. The fact is Finances are not in the EC’s field of action but are still the Countries’ prerogatives. But hey, who cares?
To impose the automatism of the penalties (this is too openly not democratic) they want to introduce a “rule of inverse majority”. All right, if 2/3 of the assembly doesn’t vote against the sanctions will be imposed.
Simple: In casual language if 2/3 of the Parliament doesn’t oppose a law, the law is passed…
That is a new democracy marching for you…

I was, and still, a Pro-European. I still believe in a democratic Europe. But, with the imposition against the will of countries (in which 2 of the founders of the EU – France and Holland) of the European Constitution camouflaged in the Lisbon Treaty, the EU is going of the road of a soft fascist state where all opposition to the rules imposed by an economical model will be banned by “laws”.

welcome to the EU, a kratos that can never be legitimate because there is no unified demos whose collective will it can represent, an entity whose only possible response to its impossible task is to create glorious fudges that represent the will of no-one and then seek to make itself ever more remote from the people it claims to represent to shield itself from their fury.

[Louis VI the Fat]

welcome to the EU, a kratos that can never be legitimate because there is no unified demos whose collective will it can represent, an entity whose only possible response to its impossible task is to create glorious fudges that represent the will of no-one and then seek to make itself ever more remote from the people it claims to represent to shield itself from their fury.

No, there is no collective will indeed. This is not some democratic deficit, but the very object, the very rationale for democracy. There is no collective wil because we are not North Korea. European democracy is made up of individuals. We are all different, with competing, sometimes conflicting and sometimes conversing wishes.

Outside of the ant colony and communist propaganda there is no 'unified will of the people'. See, to me, that is totalitarianism, the wish for a state that represents some imaginary unified will of a people. Give me liberal democracy and individuality any day, and bless the EU for spreading and protecting it across this cursed continent.



*doublechecks Andres' pockets for any remaining coins*

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well at least this week the EU is acused of fascism (Andres, Frags), instead of the more common communism. With some luck it'll be the 'European Islamofascist Union' next week, although I'm really hoping for 'mEUssolini Syndicalist Union'.


And all that for the EP voting to implement extra funds for staff to cope with the expanded workload the Lisbon Treaty put on the EP.

Well, I see nothing strange in raising their salaries…

They didn't. The staff got a raise in salaries, not MEPs. You know, the people working for 2000 euros a month. They get a wage increase.



*steals the favourite toy of Andres jr*

[InsaneApache]

There was I thinking that communism and fascism were two cheeks of the same arse. One picks on everyone, equally; whilst t'other like to pick and choose a bit more.

A bit like Woolworths.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, there is no collective will indeed. This is not some democratic deficit, but the very object, the very rationale for democracy. There is no collective wil because we are not North Korea. European democracy is made up of individuals. We are all different, with competing, sometimes conflicting and sometimes conversing wishes.

Outside of the ant colony and communist propaganda there is no 'unified will of the people'. See, to me, that is totalitarianism, the wish for a state that represents some imaginary unified will of a people. Give me liberal democracy and individuality any day, and bless the EU for spreading and protecting it across this cursed continent.



*doublechecks Andres' pockets for any remaining coins*

Nonsense and you know it. Any functional Polis must be homogemous in outlook and aspiration in order to be effective, in a democratic system minorities are automatically oppressed - so you all have to be (mostly) the same for it to work.

The EU oblisously isn't a democracy because the majority (nominally Eurosceptic) is being oppressed.

As it isn't a dictatorship it must be an oligarchy with a democratic sop.

ergo, it is the Roman Republic.

Ave Res Publica!

[Louis VI the Fat]

in a democratic system minorities are automatically oppressed

No. No, the measure of democracy, it's true worth, is that in a democracy no minority is oppressed. Democracy means the exact opposite of its common definition: democracy is not majority rule, but minority rights. The entire point of clumsy, cumbersome democracy is that the voices of all are heard, that no majority can trample any minority, that even a minority consisting of one sibngle person still enjoys rights.

As it isn't a dictatorship it must be an oligarchy with a democratic sop.

ergo, it is the Roman Republic.

As I am not a bird I must be a frog.

A frog is green. The Amazon rainforest is green. Ergo, I am the Amazon rainforest.




*increases taxes to hire the extra staff needed to cope with the extra workload of this increased taxation*

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No. No, the measure of democracy, it's true worth, is that in a democracy no minority is oppressed. Democracy means the exact opposite of its common definition: democracy is not majority rule, but minority rights. The entire point of clumsy, cumbersome democracy is that the voices of all are heard, that no majority can trample any minority, that even a minority consisting of one sibngle person still enjoys rights.

No, that would be French Republicanism, and it would be great if that system worked. Democracy is rule of the people by majority vote, it's what Switzerland has, which is why Switzerland banned minarets almost by accident.

As I am not a bird I must be a frog.

A frog is green. The Amazon rainforest is green. Ergo, I am the Amazon rainforest.

The EU is an oligarchy ruled by a distant elite who consider themselves to be above the Plebs and not truly answerable to them; but because they fear the mob we have assemblies and mock-tribunes.

Sounds pretty Roman to me - pretty sure the Senate never signed off on the Emperor's accounts either.




*increases taxes to hire the extra staff needed to cope with the extra workload of this increased taxation*

[Furunculus]

No, that would be French Republicanism, and it would be great if that system worked. Democracy is rule of the people by majority vote, it's what Switzerland has, which is why Switzerland banned minarets almost by accident.

The EU is an oligarchy ruled by a distant elite who consider themselves to be above the Plebs and not truly answerable to them; but because they fear the mob we have assemblies and mock-tribunes.

Sounds pretty Roman to me - pretty sure the Senate never signed off on the Emperor's accounts either.

maybe louis would find himself better served by a roman republic in france, for failing to represent the will of the majority is causing Marine le-Pen's party to poll higher than either Sarkozy's bunch or the main socialist grouping.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-election.html

[Andres]

No, there is no collective will indeed. This is not some democratic deficit, but the very object, the very rationale for democracy. There is no collective wil because we are not North Korea. European democracy is made up of individuals. We are all different, with competing, sometimes conflicting and sometimes conversing wishes.

Outside of the ant colony and communist propaganda there is no 'unified will of the people'. See, to me, that is totalitarianism, the wish for a state that represents some imaginary unified will of a people. Give me liberal democracy and individuality any day, and bless the EU for spreading and protecting it across this cursed continent.

Oh, cut the patronising rhetoric already.

In the countries that were coureagous enough to organise a referendum, the population said no to the European constitution. I think you know very well what the result in most other countries would have been, had they organised a referendum.

Now, you may not like that idea and it may very well be your opinion that the masses are stupid, but normally, in a democracy, when the population says "no", their representatives should respect that (even if the population says "no" for the sole reason they don't trust their politicians and not so much for what the constitution is about an sich). Which they didn't.

You can throw all your rhetoric at us for weeks, but it won't change the fact that something as fundamental as a constitution was imposed on a population that either wasn't even consulted or, if they were consulted, said no. And this is 2011. And we're talking about existing democracies that run fine, not some newly found country, so it was perfectly possible to consult them and everything would be just fine if the answer would have been "no" and if that answer had been respected.

Well at least this week the EU is acused of fascism (Andres, Frags), instead of the more common communism. With some luck it'll be the 'European Islamofascist Union' next week, although I'm really hoping for 'mEUssolini Syndicalist Union'.

Can you quote the post in which I called the EU a fascist organisation, please?

If we're not going to have an honest debate, then I'm out of here. Please, don't mischaracterize me.

Besides, if that's the best you've got, then you're probably wrong

I fail to see why the EU should be above all criticism and why the slightest criticism puts me automatically in the camp of "anti-EU". I'm not against the EU per se, but you won't see me cheering for excesses by politicians, not even if it are members of your holy EU.

And if there is reason for criticism, then I will out my criticism. If this were some game we're discussing, I'd call you "fanboy".

If you love the EU and if you want your EU to stay and to be heatlhy to a certain degree, then constantly criticising and whining is what you need to do, not worshipping.

And all that for the EP voting to implement extra funds for staff to cope with the expanded workload the Lisbon Treaty put on the EP.

The Lisbon Treaty that imposed a constitution that the population doesn't want. But that's something you conveniently ignore, of course.

And then you conveniently ignored the question "what are the legions of European Civil Servants for?"

They didn't. The staff got a raise in salaries, not MEPs. You know, the people working for 2000 euros a month. They get a wage increase.

Yes, non elected people who don't have to pass tests or exams to prove their competences. Now, that in itself might be acceptable in a private company (allthough I strongly dislikes fils/filles-à-papas), if it weren't for the fact that they're paid with taxmoney. Nepotism and taxmoney is not a combination I like.

*steals the favourite toy of Andres jr*

I have a sharp axe in my cellar

[Louis VI the Fat]

If this were some game we're discussing, I'd call you "fanboy".

Non! It is me who has taken a dispassionate, objective opinion about the EU, and it is all of you who act on impulse.

Me, I have explored the need for a raise in staff expenses, the timing, the pr results. Much of the rest of the thread is just general anti-EU blahblah copy-pasted from last week's into this week's 'evil EU' thread.

[Louis VI the Fat]

No, that would be French Republicanism, and it would be great if that system worked. Democracy is rule of the people by majority vote, it's what Switzerland has, which is why Switzerland banned minarets almost by accident.

No, majority vote is majority vote. Democracy means more than that, it means majority vote, the rule of law, human rights, (right to) equal participation of all.

The bit about Switzerland vs France is not well informed.

[HoreTore]

Majority vote? What? How does "rule of the people" mean "rule of 51% of the people"?

No, Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority. Democracy means that the country is ruled by 100% of the country. Does it mean that we all hsve to agree all the time? No, but everyone has to be able to live by the decisions being made.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, majority vote is majority vote. Democracy means more than that, it means majority vote, the rule of law, human rights, (right to) equal participation of all.

The bit about Switzerland vs France is not well informed.

Democracy means rule by the people. Switxerland is a democracy, and this is why a lot of decisions are made by referendum, this can result in something happening simply because of majority feeling - i.e. banning minarets.

France has an aggressively asserted state conciousness which everyone is expected to conform to (this from the perspective of an Anglo-Saxon, naturally). They are not the same. Britain is different again, as a Constitutional/Feudal Monarchy we look to the Queen to protect our rights and cling to the hope she actually will with white knuckles.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Louis and PVC, you are both half-right IMO. Modern liberal democracy is a mix of majority rule and minority rights. The latter exists to curb the excesses of the former.

So it's not some idealistically pure system ala what HoreTore wants (which is impossible, 100% of people with conflicting interests cannot all rule a country ), but it works fairly well.