Phalanx vs Legions.

[Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe]

I've noticed something.When you play as the Romans veering Greek factions,you can throw javelins ,and Aslo if you form a tustesdo formation against a phalanx,the phalanx gets reapply tried ,anyone noticed that?

[gollum]

Another way is to set the legion on hold formation; that will make them last much much loner against a phalanx frontally giving you more time for flankings.

[Myth]

1. You can always throw javelins (called pilla).
2. Testudo is only good versus missile fire and makes your men fight worse in melee.
3. You can just charge trough the phalanx and win so long as you have equal-level legionaries or better.

[Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe]

1. You can always throw javelins (called pilla).
2. Testudo is only good versus missile fire and makes your men fight worse in melee.
3. You can just charge trough the phalanx and win so long as you have equal-level legionaries or better.

No,I disagree,try the tuestud formation against a phalanx.

[Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe]

Another way is to set the legion on hold formation; that will make them last much much loner against a phalanx frontally giving you more time for flankings.

I see.

[Myth]

No,I disagree,try the tuestud formation against a phalanx.

You might have won due to better experience or upgrades. Try it on the grassy plains map in custom battle with equal troops, morale, no command stars for your general, no upgrades etc. and you will see for yourself.

[Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe]

You might have won due to better experience or upgrades. Try it on the grassy plains map in custom battle with equal troops, morale, no command stars for your general, no upgrades etc. and you will see for yourself.

I disagree.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Myth is correct in saying that testudo only works against missile fire. Any attempt to use it in melee against equal or better troops (all other factors being equal) will result in you losing your legionnaires.

As Myth suggested, try it out in a custom battle and see for yourself.....

[Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe]

Myth is correct in saying that testudo only works against missile fire. Any attempt to use it in melee against equal or better troops (all other factors being equal) will result in you losing your legionnaires.

As Myth suggested, try it out in a custom battle and see for yourself.....

Erm,I tryed it out.In a custom battle,if yur legions are losing,get them to form the Testudo formation,the phalanx gets easliy tired,and once ready,then atttack,

[G. Septimus]

Erm,I tryed it out.In a custom battle,if yur legions are losing,get them to form the Testudo formation,the phalanx gets easliy tired,and once ready,then atttack,

hmm....
that isn't a good Idea Napoleon
dang can't say the word

by the way
Fighting in Testudo will surely be stupid logically. Marcus(Centurion) has a point you know

[Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe]

hmm....
that isn't a good Idea Napoleon
dang can't say the word

by the way
Fighting in Testudo will surely be stupid logically. Marcus(Centurion) has a point you know

Then how will you make the phlanx tired,once they're really tired,with draw the legions,attack from the back.

[gollum]

Not sure about the testudo, i used it few times in sieges to approach walls and mostly when the enemy army has more missiles (slingers,javelins, horse archers and archers than i do), as it gives very good protection against them till their ammo is wasted.

Fighting phalanxes, i try to pin them inplace by engaging them frontally with durable infantry either phalanxes or legions in hold formation (guard mode). Then i try to come behind them onone flank with cavalry or if not available infantry and flank them one by one. That is, start with the phalanx that is alone at one flank and rout it, then the next one after that etc. For every phalanx i rout, i get also the men that engaged it previouly to use for flanking against the next phalanx until the enemy line has so few men fighting that they rout due to the outnumbering penalties. This is called "rolling up the line".

What you suggest with the testudo formation may give you more time in pinning a phalanx in some cases, hence you could put some legions say in the flank you are not planning to flank and then work on the other. Some legions should be though in normal formation to make flanking maneuvers.

[gollum]

Also, cavalry being very strong and suffering no blobbing penalties in RTW, that is they can all fight very well when they are all one big mass, mass your cavarly to kill the enemy cavalry and then the enemy flank most phalanx first and then the next etc. Massing your cavalry is especially good against the AI as he is always using his split on either flank. This means that you can beat them piece meal, ie use your massed cavalry to beat his outnumbered cavalry on one flank and then flank his infantry line freely.

You can also use Alexander's tactic of one flank refused in echelon formation as Alexander did in Gaugamela against the Persians.

This means that one flank is placed in depth to cover being outflanked and ensure it fights long without routing while the other flank can have all the cavalry and aim to flank the enemy center.

The formation is like this:
.................................................................................................... .heavyinf
.........................................................................................heavyinf
.........................missiles..missiles..missiles...missiles..heavyinf
cav..cav..cav.......heavyinf..heavyinf..heavyinf..heavyinf
cav..cav..cav.......skirmishers..skirmishers..skrmishers

So you go for pinning enemy center and flanking it with your cavalry while ensuring your other flank does not suffer the same fate. In Alexander's army the heavy infantry was phalanxes in the center in Gaugamela, but you can use legions to pull off the same tactic when playing the Romans. If you don;t have skirmishers, archers can be placed initially front to skirmish, so your infantry does not suffer unecessary casualties, and once the fighting starts, pull them behind the infantry to increase your numbers that helps morale and also avoid them being caught by enemy infantry or cavalry. They can even act as last resort reserves in protecting the flanks of your infantry if needed or plug gaps in your line if things go bad.

there is an interesting documentary that explains with the aid of experts the echelon formation in the battle of gaugamela here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKOO...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9QD...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Gt...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzBi...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGEU...eature=related

[gollum]

Another important bit in pinning phalanxes is the depth of your legions. Some people put legions in shallow formations 2 or 3 ranks deep and engage at will (that is out of guard mode). This is a mistake if you are going for pinning, as the formation is easily penetrated and especially against a phalanx it doesn't last a heartbeat. What you want to be doing is put the legion in a deep fighting block - depending in what unit sizes you play this can be 5 or more deep. If you add guard mode to this, the legion will last a very long time against a phalanx frontally and so be a very effective pin. Legions that attack from the flanks should be out of guard mode though, ie engage at will.

The difference of the two is that, in guard mode, the unit will maintain formation meaning tht only men incontact with enemy men will fight and men do not disperse. This is obsiously best for pins ie make them fight long. For flank attacks, you want all your men attacking the enemy flank to make as much damage as quickly as possible hence guard mode is no good for that.

[Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe]

Thanks mate,this really helps me.

[Passion]

A little bit late to the party here...

The immobility of the phalanx is the weakness. The only real troops you have to go toe-toe with them are Triarii, a couple of them spread out whilst your quicker legions flank them is the way to go.

You could also try to lure them out. Try to force them to attack you on the campaign map so they have to move, this their weakness.

[gollum]

Welcome to the org Passion, enjoy your stay

Indeed its as you say especially when they have to break formation and that is easy to do against the AI. If you have fast troops like barbarian infantry (bastarnae, thracians, falxmen, naked fanatics and the like) or cavalry combined with some tough heavy infantry, legions or heavy swords or phalanxes of your own, then you can spread out the phalanx instead of fighting concentrated in order to take advantage of wide range of attacks at flanks and rears. It takes more micromanaging though and you are running teh risk taht your troops may not support each other in terms of numbers locally and so be of low morale.

Triarii can nearly beat the phalanx or thereabouts, but principes can also stand in guard mode and deep formation against halanx for long time allowing you to flank. If only hastati are avialable they will have to do, just you have a bit less time for the flank attack before the pinning units break.

[ReluctantSamurai]

My preference, when playing a Roman faction, is to hit phalanx from the sides. If you curl behind you get more of the "fight-to-the-death" situations, and this will cause you more casualties in the long run. Even though Equites are light cavalry, they make excellent 'phalanx-busters' if you use them properly. Tie up the phalanx frontally with infantry, and charge your Equite from the flank. DO NOT let the them continue to attack after the initial charge as they will suffer badly. Back them out quickly, regroup, and charge in again if needed.

Mobility is the key, as stated....do not give that up by getting bogged down in hand-to-hand combat.

[Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe]

My preference, when playing a Roman faction, is to hit phalanx from the sides. If you curl behind you get more of the "fight-to-the-death" situations, and this will cause you more casualties in the long run. Even though Equites are light cavalry, they make excellent 'phalanx-busters' if you use them properly. Tie up the phalanx frontally with infantry, and charge your Equite from the flank. DO NOT let the them continue to attack after the initial charge as they will suffer badly. Back them out quickly, regroup, and charge in again if needed.

Mobility is the key, as stated....do not give that up by getting bogged down in hand-to-hand combat.

This is going to be a long term discussion,and I think it will gain fame,..

[MajorFreak]

mmmm...pila enmasse tend to rout phalanxes quite easily. I find that any infantry unit on LOOSE and 'hold' will not only tie down a phalanx but also take much less casualties. The reason i hate putting legions into echelon is their pilas really love causing blue on blue situations. better to have archers in the rear on 'hold fire' to keep morale up (and shooting at enemy missile troops) and have your legions in a line to envelope. I tend to avoid using skirmishers: they have the annoying habit of being cavalry magnets

As for cavalry? well, mostly all it takes is my general sweeping in behind to start routing units...yah for hale and hearty trait from healing temples.

I truly prefer infantry armies currently...once i found out how to get hale and hearty trait i was in seventh heaven. i tend not to use 'loose' formation much anymore except for dealing with phalanxes, but i constantly use 'hold' formation for the central lines and default option for the flanking swordsmen, with well managed missile troops in the rear...skirmishers aren't really my cup of tea, although i'll keep one or two to help chase down routers.

As for mobbed cavalry, it's uberfun yes, i'll agree on that...it's just that i'd much rather one more unit of archers than a bigger horse blob. Now, cavalry archers mmmmm...ever tried to mob fire missiles? that's where that special function comes in handy - you'll cream your pants the first time you are able to mob fire missiles using that special circular motion thingy BECAUSE THEY DON'T CAUSE BLUE ON BLUE (as long as it's a flat plain)
hehehe...mmmmm...just thinking about it makes me want to bribe a general up there and start buying mercs.

oh right, phalanx vs legions...well, i think i'll just reiterate my point about LOOSE + HOLD to engage phalanx with legions.
Another point that i don't think was mentioned here, albeit elsewhere, is that shield bonus is for the front and left flank - so engage on their rear/right flank!

[ReluctantSamurai]

mmmm...pila enmasse tend to rout phalanxes quite easily.

That may be true for early phalanx like militia hoplites and levy pikemen, and probably phalanx pikemen, as well, but Macedonian Royal Pikemen, Carthaginian Sacred Band, Spartan Hoplites, and Seleucid SilverShields are a different matter. If led by a competent general, these will be a handful that will not rout easily...at least not in my experience.

And its' a good point about the directional shield bonus...something often overlooked.

[MajorFreak]

I just noticed for the first time (yah for zooming in) that my legionaries will have the rear flanks throw pila when engaged with the enemy. that's sweet! I think from now on i'll enable pila once the unit is engaged instead of doing the pray and spray. Honestly, i have never been a fan of pila - way too much blue on blue.

[wumpus]

The phallanx is good especially when on the defensive--and better if you're facing a formless barbarian charge. The legion's forte is its mobility and flexibility. Without cavalry or some other troops to protect the flanks, the phallanx will experience difficulties. I prefer to play Greek rather than Roman in RomeTW, but facing a full-blown legion complete with auxiliaries with my Spartans (or similar troops), also with their appurtenant auxiliaries is one heck of a difficult situation for me. If the phallanx had been a little more mobile (I don't know how you'd make it so), then it would be invincible. That's right: to make a phallanx win over the legion needs the whole gamut of "plus factors": high morale, substantial experience, the Greek general's "stars", etc. But sending a testudo against a phallanx--you'd be taking away the best thing your legion's got for it, and that's the combination of flexibility and mobility. Yes, Napoleon--try it with all things equal with both sides and see for yourself what will happen. Hawooh.