Al Sabyn and the two big boys

**fomalhaut** · 03-10-2011, 01:33

I understand that Saba is supposed to be a pretty difficult campaign, and besides their unique geographic location and culture i love being the relatively backwater nation acting as a sort of phantom against the two established and powerful empires, Seleukaia and Ptolemaioi.

but for some reason, both of my Saba campaigns, Ptolemy and Seleukia are only at war with me. Never against any one else, not even eachother as they sign peace treaties before i've even built roads for my capital. I would take screens but Steam isn't working for me but i am their only enemy for the last 60 years, and not even forcing diplomacy to make them fight eachother works. I ultimately quit because constantly fighting Agema stacks over and over is a really big chore and really no fun.

I'm totally totally fine, and want, to fight the two big empires with their heavy armor and 'high' cultures using super fast desert warfare tactics against them but not when they both are sending the entire might of their empires against me, through the damn arabian desert... every year!

It's not only a gameplay bug i think but also a total immersion killer, as it makes no sense that two of the biggest eastern empires would have 0 enemies except desert people at the end of the world.

Yes i do have a (weak and near militia level) phalanx of my own but i don't think Saba is made to actually fight the full might of two empires, right? they should be at war with multiple people as they always are whenever i play as anyone else. So is this a bug? what's your guys experience with this cool faction?

**Olaf The Great** · 03-10-2011, 01:59

The RTW programmers had the bright idea of having a suicidally antagonistic AI that conspires to destroy YOU the PLAYER and no one else. Border a faction with ONE city with your best army parked RIGHT there and they'll attack with a halfstack of pantodapoi. It's why I can't really play EB1 anymore and am having a hard time waiting for EB2 D=. Thankfull Medieval 2 has moddable diplomacy and if Stainless Steel is of any consideration by the EB team, you can load up several different types of AI before starting the game which are save-game compatible (IE, A warlike AI, a peaceful AI, a warlike but alliance holding AI etc) also the factions seem to declare war on eachother just as much as they do you and there's none of those "Peace treaty with enemy, then both allly against you" shenanigans. What's really required for EB2 is some sort of script that requires factions that signed a peace treaty not to declare war on eachother for say, 10 turns.

So in all RTW diplomacy has...
*Suicidal AI
*Peace Treaties and alliances against you.
*Sudden attacks right after they open trade rights with you
*Allies seem to do worse, enemies seem to do better. (Think if you're playing Casse, how many times do you see Seleucia crumble? If you're playing Hayasdan, how strong is Seleucia?)
*"We have nothing to offer, and must turn you(r gift..) down"

Editl:For example, just now Pontos finally asked for a peace treaty because my three Royal Baktrian armies were destroying its countryside, I accepted. The MOMENT the diplomacy panel went away I was attacked by a small army of theirs.

**vollorix** · 03-10-2011, 03:12

I do not remember it really well, since it´s an eternity since i´ve played vanilla last time, but could it be that the AI factions are acting this way, partly(?), because there are no multiple Roman factions, and, perhaps even the SPQR superfaction in the game anymore? Does anyone remember if this aggressive behaivour of the AI primary occured after one used to win the Roman Civil War, or if it was normal for the factons even before? What i remember was, while playing Juli, i used to get peace proposals from Greeks, Carthaginians or others, after the Senate used to give me a mission against those factions, like blockading their port for a turn, and i was at war with them. They allways asked for peace, and were readily paying tribute for accepting it.

Btw: fomalhaut - what difficulty are you playing on? have you tried medium, or even easy? I mean, you are not competing with the AI, but instead are trying to have a nice game, so, the only way i see to prevent that rediculos behaiviour of the AI, allying themselvs against a small desert nation, would be do choose the lowest difficulty level.

On the other hand, it´s quite understandable, when AI, programmed to hate the human player, is taking a break fighting each other when kind of super agressive nation emerges on their both boarders, threatening them at the same time. The enemy of my enemy is my friend - i find it quite logical. Once they´d throw you out off their boarders, they´d gladly sign a peace treate with you, i´m sure. So, perhaps the solution lies in avoiding common boarders with both superpowers at the same time? ;)

**fomalhaut** · 03-10-2011, 03:56

Im on M/M since i knew how hard Saba was to play as!

the thing is i haven't had borders with them for a long time. I had Axum long before Ptolemy had anything else except Theron bordering me. I just recently bordered Seleukaia by taking the last Arabian peninsula town for extra income and for solidarity.

I understand 'enemy of my enemy' but it doesn't make sense at all in context. They have NEVER been at war with eachother, or another state, for longer than it took for them to send diplomats to the other side. These guys are bordering so many different cultures that it blows my mind that they aren't at war with everyone.

**Pobs** · 03-10-2011, 10:32

Fomalhaut,

the Saba are a tough nation to play without a doubt but you can ease the pressure by crossing over the red sea and grabbing Land in the south. If your enemies insist on staying allied to each other then try taking a Seleucid city and gifting it to the egyptians.... that is a trick I use when I want to sow discord amongst my enemies. The Seleucids will try to take it back and will start a war with the egyptians to do it... oh and if they refuse to accept it as a gift, try offering them a couple of 1000 mnai with it, they will take the bait then :)

cheers,

Pobs

**vollorix** · 03-10-2011, 12:55

Hm, that´s strange, what about all those wars with Pahlava, Baktria and others, has AS signed peace treaty with all of them? o0
Yea, gifting towns to the opposite side would make sence, there is also another possibility: try to ensure revolts in distant cities like Kyrene - once Ptoleys own it, it often rebels to Seleucids, and the war will break out.
Also hire assains, lots of them, and try to kill any diplomate of both sides on enemys territory; though i don´t know if the place of killing matters, you still are able to prevent a quick peace between both nations, and you faction leader gets awsome traits and ancillaries, btw.
You also could involve the Carthaginians into the game, disrupting their alliance with Ptoleys, waging a little boarder conflict, as soon as rebel settlments are all captured, and factions boarder each other, they will bee quite keen to use an opportunity to start the war against each other. But you will have to retreat from some areas, to stop bordering both - AS and Ptoleys, once you´ve initiated several conflicts, try to ally yourself with Carthies or Pahlava, and use gifts, towns + cash ( small tribute of 200 mnai for 100 turns, for instance ) to ensure their loyality.
All in all, this sounds like a lot of fun you might have, - this could become not only a straight forward TW campaign, when you steamroll your enemies by brute military force, but when you play them against each other in order to survive, using all your "arabic" cunnings, and have an real "eastern" atmosphere of intrigue and treachery, hiding a sharp knife behind your back until it its time to strike ;)

**A_Dane** · 03-14-2011, 08:26

Originally Posted by vollorix

I do not remember it really well, since it´s an eternity since i´ve played vanilla last time, but could it be that the AI factions are acting this way, partly(?), because there are no multiple Roman factions, and, perhaps even the SPQR superfaction in the game anymore? Does anyone remember if this aggressive behaivour of the AI primary occured after one used to win the Roman Civil War, or if it was normal for the factons even before? What i remember was, while playing Juli, i used to get peace proposals from Greeks, Carthaginians or others, after the Senate used to give me a mission against those factions, like blockading their port for a turn, and i was at war with them. They allways asked for peace, and were readily paying tribute for accepting it.

Btw: fomalhaut - what difficulty are you playing on? have you tried medium, or even easy? I mean, you are not competing with the AI, but instead are trying to have a nice game, so, the only way i see to prevent that rediculos behaiviour of the AI, allying themselvs against a small desert nation, would be do choose the lowest difficulty level.

On the other hand, it´s quite understandable, when AI, programmed to hate the human player, is taking a break fighting each other when kind of super agressive nation emerges on their both boarders, threatening them at the same time. The enemy of my enemy is my friend - i find it quite logical. Once they´d throw you out off their boarders, they´d gladly sign a peace treate with you, i´m sure. So, perhaps the solution lies in avoiding common boarders with both superpowers at the same time? ;)

The reason the AI asked for peace with you was most likely because you did not share a border, I still get peace proposals from nations i don't share a border with. Hell yesterday the Arverni actually accepted one when we had a 1 province border, never happened to me before. And yes, I remember the suicidal AI from vanilla all too well, in vanilla however it wasn't really a problem, as you could easily have multiple armies fighting on multiple fronts and beat the AI armies without really trying...(only time i had any real difficulties because of the AI, was as the seleucids and was fighting egypt, pontus, armenia, parthia and the greeks... so many suicide stacks that just wore me down...)

In any case, I don't play on VH if I'm an underdog anymore, I'll go as high as Hard, but not VH. It simply becomes a bore fighting multiple armies of seleucids, ptollies, romans or makedonians, and not have them fight anyone else. Hard makes it better to a point where i can actually enjoy the game..

**Cute Wolf** · 03-14-2011, 08:39

well, wat is funnier than playing as KH (in BI) and go up against a very unlikely alliance IRL? Epeiros + Makedon + SPQR + Sauromatae (thanks for rebelling, Cherosonessos) + Ptolemaioi (Halicarnassos rebellion as well) + AS (guess, they try to beiege Halicarnassos)

without any ally?

the best campaign ever, especially when the romans land a fullstack of Camillan troops in near empty Sparte and my army rushes to save them.