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Thread: Just wondering...

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Just wondering...

    Okay, I get that Protestant Christians, at least those from the British Isles, don't consider Roman Catholics to be Christian, or even human for that matter. Your virulent animosity has been clear for centuries. I don't understand it, I don't like it, but you've made your points loud and clear.

    But why do you keep going on with taunts and nationalistic chants, in an era where we're all supposed to be moving past all of that?

    Or is this the Orange anti-version of Tiocfaidh ár lá? May the day Catholics are treated like normal people never come?

    Just wondering...
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    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    Okay, I get that Protestant Christians, at least those from the British Isles, don't consider Roman Catholics to be Christian, or even human for that matter. Your virulent animosity has been clear for centuries. I don't understand it, I don't like it, but you've made your points loud and clear.

    But why do you keep going on with taunts and nationalistic chants, in an era where we're all supposed to be moving past all of that?

    Or is this the Orange anti-version of Tiocfaidh ár lá? May the day Catholics are treated like normal people never come?

    Just wondering...
    Yeah, whatever.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    As regards my own part of the world.

    Most of it is due to the more fundamentalist approach to religion in the North and Scotland, In England proper I doubt most english people give much thought to it.

    I would say most ordinary English people don't even understand what the Orange order is or what a Taig is supposed to be.

    Now in the US the situation is at once both more and less tolerant at the same time, you can have those loons from the Westboro Church preach pure hate but others are I would hope far less intolerant.

    I would say there is loons on both sides though and I seriously doubt anyone who thinks Catholics are not normal is really the sole voice of the otherside.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 03-16-2011 at 03:08.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Huh, I'm catholic and I haven't noticed anything like that in England.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    Okay, I get that Protestant Christians, at least those from the British Isles, don't consider Roman Catholics to be Christian, or even human for that matter.
    The British Isles is far larger than "North Ireland", where Catholics and Protestants dislike each other equally and it is tied in with Catholics being pro-Irish and Protestant being pro-British, but i don't know of any other "dislike" of Catholics especially in any pronounced tone anywhere else.

    I am scratching my head wondering what you on referring to. Do you know the Pope visited here earlier, and he was greeted by crowds of people, and the Pope had compliments to say about Britain (though a lot of negative comments before he visited, as we are seen as the beacon of Secularism due to famous Secularists like Richard Dawkins, etc)

    If anything, Catholics hold themselves as superior, and look down upon Protestants... There was a really great school called "Christ the King" but it ended up considering closing down because the catholic parents decided they rather send their child miles away to a pure catholic school, as their kids were too good to be around Anglicans.

    (Oh, I went to a Catholic school as well.)
    Last edited by Beskar; 03-16-2011 at 05:31.
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Don, most Protestants in Britain are Church of England, and they have always really wanted to be Roman Catholic.

    Of course there are some small groups who still think the Pope is the anti-Christ. The last census showed that they are significantly outnumbered by the Jedi. There are also hard-line sects within the Catholic Church who store the matches for the return fixture of Mary v Elizabeth.

    Mosts tensions you read about are actually economic or political with religion as a convenient badge with which to label one's opponents. My family has been Catholic longer than the Popes, and the only times we have lost our heads have been due to little local misunderstandings or the excitable French.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 03-16-2011 at 08:52.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Those who give any thought whatsoever to Ireland never quite give up hope that it might sink beneath the seas and take all its problems to the ocean floor.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Bloods and Crips. One is blue and the other is red and that's reason enough to kill.

    I think the "us and them" aspect causes as many, or more, religious problems between groups as anything else. It's a gang mentality for many. No reasoning involved other than "you're not one of us and that is reason enough to hate you".
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    During the time I spent in Scotland, I got to meet a few people.
    I got interested in the Celtic vs. Rangers problem and with a few friends we started to talk to everyday Glaswegians.

    Typical conversation with a guy wearing a Rangers shawl.

    Q1: Are you interested in religion at all?
    A1: I am protestant.

    Q2: Right, so you attend the Church of Scotland?
    A2: No, I am protestant.

    Q3: Ok... so you attend some other non-catholic church?
    A3: No, I told you.. I AM A Protestant.

    Q4: Yes, I understand. Which church do you belong to?
    A4: No, I don't believe in all that?

    Q5: ???, what do you mean?
    A5: I don't believe in religion.

    Q6: But you said you were a protestant.
    A6: Yes... I protest against the Catholics and Jesus and stuff. I just don't believe in any of that.

    ...

    Typical conversation with a guy wearing a Celtic shawl

    Q1: Are you interested in religion at all?
    A1: Yes I'm RC.

    Q2: So you attend mass?
    Q3: Yes, down town [St. Andrews].
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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    I'm not sure where the original post is coming from or going to.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Those who give any thought whatsoever to Ireland never quite give up hope that it might sink beneath the seas and take all its problems to the ocean floor.

    Thanks for that insight on relations between Ireland and the UK truly devastating intellect there.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 03-16-2011 at 13:11.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    You want it sugar coated, or think that Ireland should be massively important to the UK?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    You want it sugar coated, or think that Ireland should be massively important to the UK?

    No do you think I get up every morning mad about the Brits.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  14. #14
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    This isn't an English/Irish phenomenon, though I'm sure there's an aspect of that there.

    Quite frankly, it's not really about England itself very much at all anymore. By all appearances, the English people themselves have 'moved on', and are quite open and tolerant of differing viewpoints. Nobody called for Tony's head on the Tower gate when he converted after leaving office.

    What I find interesting however is that everywhere the English went and instilled a sense of "us-versus-them" antithesim (is that a word), it's more or less alive and well. Nowhere is that more true than in the good ole US of A, with our friends down at Bob Jones University.

    But you see it in Ulster, in Scotland, in Canada and in Australia too. It's my belief that the original hatred dates back to ole Henry VIII, who understanding what shaky ground he was on by breaking from the bishopric of Peter, had to demonize those he left, without really ever 'leaving'. Let's face it, theologically and dogmatically, the Church of England has a lot more in common with the Church of Rome than it does with say the Lutherans or the Presbytarians. Somewhere down the road, this propaganda against the Roman church got infused into the National character. I'm sure Guy Fawkes and the wars with France, a predominately Catholic nation (at least at the time) helped.

    Now in the 20th century, as religion stopped playing such a critical role in England's national sense of self, the need to scorn Catholicism and Catholics subsided. But in the places the English exported their loathing, namely the former/current Commonwealth countries, the message never got out. I suspect this had to do with the fact that the spirit of animosity wasn't a symptom there, it was brought as an end in of itself.

    So you wind up with Americans (who fought two wars with the mother country to prove they were no longer English, mind you), hating and despising Catholics... and one of the principal complaints lodged is "they're dislolyal, because they listen to the pope". Nobody seems to have a problem with Anglicans in the US listening to the Archbishop of Canterbury, however.

    Every now and then, when I'm not paying attention, something jerks me to my senses... like finding one of the girl's half-filled sippy cups with 3 day old milk under a car seat. You see something, hear something... and it just stuns you... intelligent, caring good people still choose to hang onto these old rants and screeds. Why? What possible purpose does it serve in today's society? Why is Jack Chick not put into the same list as Fred Phelps?
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 03-16-2011 at 14:23.
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    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Implying catholicism is even christian and not just a papish fake-religion.
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    -Plutarch, Coniugia Praecepta 46

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skullheadhq View Post
    Implying catholicism is even christian and not just a papish fake-religion.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 03-16-2011 at 14:52.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    This isn't an English/Irish phenomenon, though I'm sure there's an aspect of that there.

    Quite frankly, it's not really about England itself very much at all anymore. By all appearances, the English people themselves have 'moved on', and are quite open and tolerant of differing viewpoints. Nobody called for Tony's head on the Tower gate when he converted after leaving office.

    What I find interesting however is that everywhere the English went and instilled a sense of "us-versus-them" antithesim (is that a word), it's more or less alive and well. Nowhere is that more true than in the good ole US of A, with our friends down at Bob Jones University.

    But you see it in Ulster, in Scotland, in Canada and in Australia too. It's my belief that the original hatred dates back to ole Henry VIII, who understanding what shaky ground he was on by breaking from the bishopric of Peter, had to demonize those he left, without really ever 'leaving'. Let's face it, theologically and dogmatically, the Church of England has a lot more in common with the Church of Rome than it does with say the Lutherans or the Presbytarians. Somewhere down the road, this propaganda against the Roman church got infused into the National character. I'm sure Guy Fawkes and the wars with France, a predominately Catholic nation (at least at the time) helped.
    Wasn't it the Scots who were particularly evangelical and fundamentalist about their beliefs? Philippvs might know more about the details of the history of Christianity in Britain, but that's the impression I got.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Religion.

    Some point their bum up and headbang the floor, some put on funny hats.

    Some do not care about it.

    To answer the OP - why brits/people in general ridicule catholicism? I would guess it is because they find the faith absolutely ridiculous.
    Few are born with it, even fewer know what to do with it.

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Wasn't it the Scots who were particularly evangelical and fundamentalist about their beliefs? Philippvs might know more about the details of the history of Christianity in Britain, but that's the impression I got.
    Well there is a feeling of the frontiersman about much of the early unionist/protestant rhetoric from the North makes a lot of sense that it would feed into there religion and politics.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibumi View Post
    Religion.

    Some point their bum up and headbang the floor, some put on funny hats.

    Some do not care about it.
    And then you have those who pretend they don't care, yet feel the need to ridicule the religious people.
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  21. #21
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    Okay, I get that Protestant Christians, at least those from the British Isles, don't consider Roman Catholics to be Christian, or even human for that matter. Your virulent animosity has been clear for centuries. I don't understand it, I don't like it, but you've made your points loud and clear.

    But why do you keep going on with taunts and nationalistic chants, in an era where we're all supposed to be moving past all of that?

    Or is this the Orange anti-version of Tiocfaidh ár lá? May the day Catholics are treated like normal people never come?

    Just wondering...
    Agree with you 100% brother BRITS OUT! FTQ 1916 King Billy was a homosexual etc...

    OK I will make a serious reply...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    First off you can't talk about about the British Isles as if it was religiously homogenous. In England (so about 85% of the British population), the CofE sees itself more as a via media between Protestantism/Catholicism. There is not really any animosity against Catholics, when there is it is usually because the CofE is more liberal on issues like women priests etc, so it is the opposite scenario from crazy Proddy fundies being crazy. In terms of doctrine and worship the CofE is very close to Rome, and they tend to see Catholics as brothers in the faith. They have always prided themselves on being a broad church after all, I have no idea why you think they are intolerant.

    As for Ulster/Scotland, well thats a whole different matter. Obviously a much stricter form of Protestantism has prevailed in these places historically, but you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that's where the modern anti-Catholicism comes from. The Church of Scotland is in fact very tolerant, the Moderator of the General Assembly was happy to meet with the Pope, and they do a lot of ecumenical work. The Wee Frees on the other hand are a bit more strict and evangelical, but they are still far from anti-Catholic. The only native based root of anti-Catholicism in Scotland is the Wee Wee Frees, which tend to be strongest up in the more remote isles. They are the only 'old school' hardline style Presbyterians.

    Obviously though they are not the only anti-Catholic religious influence in Scotland, and that's why I said "native based" in the above paragraph. Because the reality in sectarianism in Scotland was almost entirel exported from Northern Ireland with immigration. There was usually about 1 Proddy immigrant for every 3 Catholic immigrants. And these people tended to settle in the newly developing industrial towns on the west coast, including obviously Glasgow itself. What most foreign folk don't realise is that sectarianism is really a west coast/central belt issue in Scotland, it doesn't exist anywhere else in the country.

    My little hometown is a classic example. It's been in the news for having some of the worst violence at Orange and Republican marches. One side of my own family are Northern Irish Protestants. I practically grew up living with my Gran, and nearly everyone in her street is Northern Irish to some degree, a good number are recent arrivals and so Ulster accents are very common (especially at church, interestingly). Wherever you go you will see 'UVF' or 'RIRA' scrawled everywhere. You won't see any graffiti celebrating the union of 1707, but you will for 1801. You won't see graffiti for say 1314 (Battle of Bannockburn), but you will see 1690 (you should all know what that is!). When you approach the high street from the main road, the first buildings you pass are an Orange Hall and a Protestant Church. If you go through the high street, there are about 5 Irish clubs lining the way, followed by a Catholic church on the way out.

    So to sum up, secatarianism as it exists in Scotland today is really something that was exported from Northern Ireland. The really funny thing is if you look at views from the late 19th century where the CofS was still relatively hardline, they actually hated the Orange Order because of its connections with the Church of Ireland (due to its Episcopalian nature). Of course, most Orangemen nowadays are hardline Proddies/fundies.

    And since Rangers have been mentioned, I'll go into a bit of detail about that. I read a book a while back where the author made some very insightful observations. First of all, he pointed out that Rangers used to represent the Protestant establishment. Their support was very heavily tied to the Church of Scotland, and for them that represented mainstream, middle-class, Scottish civic society. I have to say Don, people are still viewing them in this manner in this thread.

    But as the author pointed out, this has changed dramatically. What is considered polite, mainstream Scottish society has changed dramatically. For a start, anti-Catholicism has no place in it. Catholics are now very well integrated into the whole political process. For me, the epitome of this is the civic nationalism of the SNP. They represent a new, liberal, progressive, multicultural Scotland. The Church of Scotland is in reality now longer anti-Catholic, but is in fact part of this new, liberal civic society.

    So to bring it back to Rangers, as the author says, they have come to represent the anti-establishment, while Celtic have done the reverse and become more 'establishment'. This is due in a large part to the fact that Rangers main support base is in fact from the working-class communities descended from Ulster Protestant immigrants (so people like me I guess), as opposed to the 'native' Proddies, which are more middle-class and have adapted into the new establishment and are all tolerant etc.

    The more religious elements of the Rangers fans are no longer associated with the CofS, but in fact go to either smaller hardline Presbyterian churches, or more commonly evangelical churches. Since becoming more anti-establishment, Rangers fans also have changed their political outlook. Many are neo-Nazi's, support the BNP, and are involved with the whole Ulster loyalism scene and the associated paramilitary groups. In fact, Neil Lennon might be being forced to retire as Celtic manager for safety reasons because of the extent of the death threats he has been getting after getting into a bust up with a Rangers fan at Ibrox, who just happened to be a member of the Ulster Defence Association (again, the Norn Iron link). These far-right links also explain the religious movements Rangers fans identify with (again, not mainstream Protestantism, but fringe racist views like 'British Israelism'. A core belief of which is the idea that the Pope is indeed the Antichrist. This leads to strange pics like the one below where Rangers fans do Nazi salutes while flying the star of David:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    As a result of this, Huns like myself are pretty much despised by mainstream Scottish society. We are regularly told be Scottish nationalists to "go home" (usually by this they mean Ulster or England, since we see ourselves as British). For some reason it is OK for them to say this, but I was to them to all get on a bus to Stranrear and take the next ferry, that would not be OK. But such is life, can't tell you how much I hate those people.

    If you are wondering about the roots of my 'anti-Catholicism', well when I was born again I read the classical Proddy stuff like Calvin's 'Institutes'. I guess I was your classic hardline Proddy. But I've moved on since then I guess, I got frustrated with some other Proddies that seemed to me to have become too much like a new form of Catholic. They would speak of Puritan theologians like they were venerating a saint. When I said something they didn't like, they would quote the Westminster Confession of Faith like it was scripture. And I don't like that... they follow the old Reformers to the letter but they don't have the spirit of Reformation. So yes I've found myself in different 'circles' I guess where maybe more anti-establishment ideas like the above mentioned British Isrealism (dubbed a heresy by your old school hardline Calvin-quoting Proddies) is common. So I guess we're the fringe within the fringe. With the whole Babylonian world system agains us... just the way things should be!


    There I just wrote an essay for you.
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    To be fair I suppose we have hijacked Don's thread and shipped it to Ireland/UK, I assume he is really talking about his experiences at home in the USA.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    I don't think so looking at the OP. Better not be anyway after I wrote that essay!
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    I don't think so looking at the OP. Better not be anyway after I wrote that essay!
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  25. #25
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    heh, oh well. I wonder if my St. Patrick's day sig is what inspired the OP (given he mentioned the Tiochfaidh ar la thing)?
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    And then you have those who pretend they don't care, yet feel the need to ridicule the religious people.
    There are indeed those too.

    There are also those who honestly do not care, but still ridicule religion.

    Imagine some loony walking into the bar screaming about having seen unicorn. As you see, it is quite easy to ridicule even without caring that much.

    As to ridiculing religious people, there is a fine line there. And if I understood the rules of this boards correctly, a matter hard to discuss freely.
    Few are born with it, even fewer know what to do with it.

  27. #27
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    I have no problem with catholics

    I have a problem with certain members of the Irish dispora whom send money to terrorists so they can feel more Irish at heart *see south Boston* They should've left that pettiness on the boat, but they didn't.

    It's not an OMG Protastents keeping me down, Its OMG the catholics are blowing us up

    Of course no one does and then they use American institutions to further causes in the old country

    I have a nice healthy hate for my English anscetry, why the Irish dispora still clings to erie I can't explain
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  28. #28
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    heh, oh well. I wonder if my St. Patrick's day sig is what inspired the OP (given he mentioned the Tiochfaidh ar la thing)?
    Well, to be honest, given views you've expressed in the past, it does come off as pretty snarky. But that's not really what my post was about. I don't imagine you're out there skulking in an alley-way someplace in Glasgow, ready to glass the next Celtic fan that crosses your path stumbling out of a bar.

    But these people DO exist... In the USA, in Scotland, in Canada, in Australia....and it's not limited to anti-Irish bias, it's an anti-Catholic sentiment. I'm wondering aloud to it's causes and whether it'll ever subside. I suspect probably not, as the progenitor of it, English nationalism, has already made it's peace and moved on. The rest of the English speaking world though seems mired in it.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  29. #29

    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Hardline protestants really are some of the most weird religious groups on the planet. Remarkably similar to the Sunni extremists from Arabia, though.
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  30. #30
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just wondering...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibumi View Post
    There are indeed those too.

    There are also those who honestly do not care, but still ridicule religion.

    Imagine some loony walking into the bar screaming about having seen unicorn. As you see, it is quite easy to ridicule even without caring that much.

    As to ridiculing religious people, there is a fine line there. And if I understood the rules of this boards correctly, a matter hard to discuss freely.
    Ridiculing is a collapse of reason and communication. You will never convince/convert anyone by the act of attempting to ridicule them.

    If it is not your intention to convince anyone, then you are trolling. The bottom line is that you are up to no good.
    Runes for good luck:

    [1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1

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