First off you can't talk about about the British Isles as if it was religiously homogenous. In England (so about 85% of the British population), the CofE sees itself more as a via media between Protestantism/Catholicism. There is not really any animosity against Catholics, when there is it is usually because the CofE is more liberal on issues like women priests etc, so it is the opposite scenario from crazy Proddy fundies being crazy. In terms of doctrine and worship the CofE is very close to Rome, and they tend to see Catholics as brothers in the faith. They have always prided themselves on being a broad church after all, I have no idea why you think they are intolerant.
As for Ulster/Scotland, well thats a whole different matter. Obviously a much stricter form of Protestantism has prevailed in these places historically, but you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that's where the modern anti-Catholicism comes from. The Church of Scotland is in fact very tolerant, the Moderator of the General Assembly was happy to meet with the Pope, and they do a lot of ecumenical work. The
Wee Frees on the other hand are a bit more strict and evangelical, but they are still far from anti-Catholic. The only native based root of anti-Catholicism in Scotland is the
Wee Wee Frees, which tend to be strongest up in the more remote isles. They are the only 'old school' hardline style Presbyterians.
Obviously though they are not the only anti-Catholic religious influence in Scotland, and that's why I said "native based" in the above paragraph. Because the reality in sectarianism in Scotland was almost entirel exported from Northern Ireland with immigration. There was usually about 1 Proddy immigrant for every 3 Catholic immigrants. And these people tended to settle in the newly developing industrial towns on the west coast, including obviously Glasgow itself. What most foreign folk don't realise is that sectarianism is really a west coast/central belt issue in Scotland, it doesn't exist anywhere else in the country.
My little hometown is a classic example. It's been in the news for having some of the worst violence at Orange and Republican marches. One side of my own family are Northern Irish Protestants. I practically grew up living with my Gran, and nearly everyone in her street is Northern Irish to some degree, a good number are recent arrivals and so Ulster accents are very common (especially at church, interestingly). Wherever you go you will see 'UVF' or 'RIRA' scrawled everywhere. You won't see any graffiti celebrating the union of 1707, but you will for 1801. You won't see graffiti for say 1314 (Battle of Bannockburn), but you will see 1690 (you should all know what that is!). When you approach the high street from the main road, the first buildings you pass are an Orange Hall and a Protestant Church. If you go through the high street, there are about 5 Irish clubs lining the way, followed by a Catholic church on the way out.
So to sum up, secatarianism as it exists in Scotland today is really something that was exported from Northern Ireland. The really funny thing is if you look at views from the late 19th century where the CofS was still relatively hardline, they actually hated the Orange Order because of its connections with the Church of Ireland (due to its Episcopalian nature). Of course, most Orangemen nowadays are hardline Proddies/fundies.
And since Rangers have been mentioned, I'll go into a bit of detail about that. I read a book a while back where the author made some very insightful observations. First of all, he pointed out that Rangers used to represent the Protestant establishment. Their support was very heavily tied to the Church of Scotland, and for them that represented mainstream, middle-class, Scottish civic society. I have to say
Don, people are still viewing them in this manner in this thread.
But as the author pointed out, this has changed dramatically. What is considered polite, mainstream Scottish society has changed dramatically. For a start, anti-Catholicism has no place in it. Catholics are now very well integrated into the whole political process. For me, the epitome of this is the civic nationalism of the SNP. They represent a new, liberal, progressive, multicultural Scotland. The Church of Scotland is in reality now longer anti-Catholic, but is in fact part of this new, liberal civic society.
So to bring it back to Rangers, as the author says, they have come to represent the anti-establishment, while Celtic have done the reverse and become more 'establishment'. This is due in a large part to the fact that Rangers main support base is in fact from the working-class communities descended from Ulster Protestant immigrants (so people like me I guess), as opposed to the 'native' Proddies, which are more middle-class and have adapted into the new establishment and are all tolerant etc.
The more religious elements of the Rangers fans are no longer associated with the CofS, but in fact go to either smaller hardline Presbyterian churches, or more commonly evangelical churches. Since becoming more anti-establishment, Rangers fans also have changed their political outlook. Many are neo-Nazi's, support the BNP, and are involved with the whole Ulster loyalism scene and the associated paramilitary groups. In fact, Neil Lennon might be being forced to retire as Celtic manager for safety reasons because of the extent of the death threats he has been getting after getting into a bust up with a Rangers fan at Ibrox, who just happened to be a member of the Ulster Defence Association (again, the Norn Iron link). These far-right links also explain the religious movements Rangers fans identify with (again, not mainstream Protestantism, but fringe racist views like 'British Israelism'. A core belief of which is the idea that the Pope is indeed the Antichrist. This leads to strange pics like the one below where Rangers fans do Nazi salutes while flying the star of David:
As a result of this, Huns like myself are pretty much despised by mainstream Scottish society. We are regularly told be Scottish nationalists to "go home" (usually by this they mean Ulster or England, since we see ourselves as British). For some reason it is OK for them to say this, but I was to them to all get on a bus to Stranrear and take the next ferry, that would not be OK. But such is life, can't tell you how much I hate those people.
If you are wondering about the roots of my 'anti-Catholicism', well when I was born again I read the classical Proddy stuff like Calvin's 'Institutes'. I guess I was your classic hardline Proddy. But I've moved on since then I guess, I got frustrated with some other Proddies that seemed to me to have become too much like a new form of Catholic. They would speak of Puritan theologians like they were venerating a saint. When I said something they didn't like, they would quote the Westminster Confession of Faith like it was scripture. And I don't like that... they follow the old Reformers to the letter but they don't have the spirit of Reformation. So yes I've found myself in different 'circles' I guess where maybe more anti-establishment ideas like the above mentioned British Isrealism (dubbed a heresy by your old school hardline Calvin-quoting Proddies) is common. So I guess we're the fringe within the fringe. With the whole Babylonian world system agains us... just the way things should be!
Just wondering...
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
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