Played Any Classic Battles Yet?

[Magyar Khan]

We tried yesterday a classic battle, this is what happened:

1. colors are a problem still, we had 3 times red, its a nightmare! If we ever play on classic, we need to ensure, that we wont see same colors.... in 3v3 it will be impossible
2. Lag. heavy lag, already in the setup-phase, during game is was really bad as well
3. General. there seems to be no difference between the 300 and the 600 general
4. unitchoice, I checked all clans and i couldnt choose loan swords.
5. upgrades, as AMP already pointed out, upgrading missles isnt really an option.


Well, it was just one game, this need more testing, especially the lag (could be possible, that this isnt normal). Also we should invest some time to check out the stats and how its actual working. I myself have no idea whats going on with classic, never spend time into this.

If this is normal, than I dont see us playing classic, this is no fun and we hardly will find enough player, who like this.
The lag, the colors and the unit-system needs patching, else I see no point to play classic.

I will test a few more this weekend and will report here. One game is a not enough, so see this as my first experience, but not my final statement concerning classic.

will the banner colours be patched?

[RTKAbu]

Cant believe cwc is gonna be ruined with classiic mode i was so looking forward to it :( i dont see any sense in using this crap mode, just go with no vets im telling u its way better than classic, if generals are different levels (most will be level 10 anyway) the lesser player gets more cash to spend so its all good there.... did u vote on classic mode v avatar mode or something? who the hell would vote for this mode? somone who hasent played much?

It is chosen by people who reject innovation and more strategy options. O wait, i cant say that otherwise i may get banned even on the .org. Instead of looking to find solutions (which are easy, you even give a good solution) and include the advantages of the avatar game, they went a step back, but well, thats CWC, walking 2 steps forward, and go 3 back in the end in the name of 'perfect balance'. Lets hope the other large tournament CWB got some sense though.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

It is chosen by people who reject innovation and more strategy options. O wait, i cant say that otherwise i may get banned even on the .org. Instead of looking to find solutions (which are easy, you even give a good solution) and include the advantages of the avatar game, they went a step back, but well, thats CWC, walking 2 steps forward, and go 3 back in the end in the name of 'perfect balance'. Lets hope the other large tournament CWB got some sense though.

Guess you have a point,Abu.

[Swoosh So]

All im saying classic mode is not "classic mode" the avatar mode with vets does the same thing but is much better - i really doubt theres some serious clan member out there less than level 10 thats gonna participate.

[AggonyDuck]

My take on the matter is that we had to choose between two bad options for the CWC and we went with the Classic mode as we perceived that it was more equal, which was more important than the limitations it had. The first tournaments with new games are always a test and this is a test on whether Classic mode is actually feasible for a big 3v3 clan tournament.

[AggonyDuck]

That said I wouldn't mind seeing the .org host a 3v3 Avatar clan competition. I'm fairly certain that the site has the infrastructure and the personel for it. There's isn't much competition out there in terms of 3v3 Avatar competition, so it would be easy to attract clans to participate, especially clans that aren't keen on classic mode. .

[Kocmoc]

That said I wouldn't mind seeing the .org host a 3v3 Avatar clan competition. I'm fairly certain that the site has the infrastructure and the personel for it. There's isn't much competition out there in terms of 3v3 Avatar competition, so it would be easy to attract clans to participate, especially clans that aren't keen on classic mode. .

We gonna do that, I personal would like to see how the current 1v1 turns out before starting anything new.
Testing the tool and see how things turn out. Im happy so far, there are many people involved and all are very eager to get something running here.

I spoke with WOC about the CWB and I also try to help out Tomi with the CWC (well, he dont need much of help anyway).

There are pro´s and contra´s with classic mode. One real big problem are colors, if you go for red its a nightmare, if 3 red armies meet somewhere.
It also takes a big new thing out and brings other problems. On the other hand classic provides more fairplay.

But yes, If we are happy with the 1v1, I strongly suggest we get some kind of clan-3v3-campaign going here at the Org.

[Nigel]

..... I strongly suggest we get some kind of clan-3v3-campaign going here at the Org.

Hi Kocmoc and AggonyDuck,

You may want to check out an idea of mine in this thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...an-Competition

Let me know what you think.

[Swoosh So]

There are pro´s and contra´s with classic mode.

Just got the vision of Nicaraguan rebels being in support of classic mode :) Dont worry mike you are correct just its a word i rarely see.

[Cu'Roi]

i can tell CWB is gonna be avatar mode.

dinadan actually recently solved all fairness issues with avatar mode. the only hurdle was retainers, and if you mandate that only enemy debuff retainers can be played, and of those only ones with corresponding avatar map unlocks (which is a lot of them, but ones all level 10 players will have, especially in a month or two when it actually begins) plus a cap on veterans, and unique veteran names for each veteran you do bring, there are actually no conceptual hurdles to a 100% fair avatar mode among 10 star players, even with different total hours played.

of course there are other considerations. CWB is sort of slow and a joint venture between WoC, RTK, HG, IMP, and now Wolves. so the actual rules are still being worked on, so details could change. but they're drafting the rules with respect to avatar mode so i assume that is what it will be. they also wanted to wait for patches and wait for CWC to get started to reduce overlap between the two competitions. CWC avatar mode wasn't really possible because enough people aren't level 10 anyway. in a month that won't be an issue, and after solving the retainer question, there is no real reason not to play avatar mode and the increased diversity of game play that comes with it.

Avatar mode (implemented as outlined above) definitely slightly increases the need for pre-game planning and strategy at the expense of actual in game micro, and in that sense it is way different than any previous total war. some players may not like this as much and that is totally legit concern. but it is fair.

[Tomisama]

Just got the vision of Nicaraguan rebels being in support of classic mode :) Dont worry mike you are correct just its a word i rarely see.

Really very funny Swoosh, thanks
And more power to the Clan War Belt, good to see some action there


A question for anyone:

I keep seeing this same complaint about banner colors in Classic Battles, and do not understand it.

Each Classic Battles faction has a very distinct banner and unique uniform colors, and if the Rules say that there are no same factions allowed within a Battle, where does the confusion come in?

I really wish and hope that they do make factions with selectable colors like the old days, but at the same time for contests it won’t make any difference, as most won’t allow same factions in a battle anyway.

[Kocmoc]

Really very funny Swoosh, thanks
And more power to the Clan War Belt, good to see some action there


A question for anyone:

I keep seeing this same complaint about banner colors in Classic Battles, and do not understand it.

Each Classic Battles faction has a very distinct banner and unique uniform colors, and if the Rules say that there are no same factions allowed within a Battle, where does the confusion come in?

I really wish and hope that they do make factions with selectable colors like the old days, but at the same time for contests it won’t make any difference, as most won’t allow same factions in a battle anyway.

There are clans with almost same color (the worst example is "red"), I had this problem in two testgames now, where this 3 clans meet, there is a big confusion.
Its just the red color, nothing else, you simply cant see who is who anymore.

You can easy test it yourself, get 3 people in and choose the red clans, than try to move the unit together.


About the 3v3.

Generally, I like the CWC and the idea behind with classic mode. This is at least one way to involve this "old" kind of TW gaming, its good to have that!
I also like the avatar style, CWB will stick to the www.clanwarbelt.com, I spoke with the guy in charge of it. He is pretty nice and they did a real good job the last years, I fully understand why they want to keep it at the place.

Id like to see such an event here at the Org. My basic idea is to have (as long there are enough player online) 3 different tourneys running all the time. A 1v1, 2v2 and a 3v3.
It might be possible to get some speed with certain tourneys at some point and really get it done in 1-2 weeks only. Hard to say, but the Org is working hard to give the community a good home.

[Tomisama]

Generally, I like the CWC and the idea behind with classic mode. This is at least one way to involve this "old" kind of TW gaming, its good to have that!

This was just our first time startup competition for the "new" game (do what you know).

The CWC Council suggested that we shelve the map based Swiss extravaganza I had wanted to start with.

Needed to get the community built up again, and work out the kinks in the new game they said.

But watch for this new one in the Fall

Good Luck All!!!

[AggonyDuck]

As Tomi said, the CWC is a very adaptable tournament and who knows what the Autumn tournament will be like. :)

[Nigel]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "Swiss extravaganza" ?

[Tomisama]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "Swiss extravaganza" ?

I thought you'd never ask

Most tourneys are Single Elimination knock outs, where only some make it to the end. The total opposite would be a Round Robin, where everyone plays everyone else in and for the length of the contest. The Swiss tourney is fast track Round Robin. In it everyone plays from the beginning to the end, but not everyone plays everyone else. The fast track part of it is in the matching, where only "like" (same skill level) players play each other in successive rounds. The process separates skill levels quickly, and reduces the length of the tournament.

The extravaganza part will take longer to explain...will be home soon and give it a try.

[Tomisama]

The extravaganza part will take longer to explain...will be home soon and give it a try.

Note: Contest Retainers (below) are not Shogun 2 game retainers, but are actual defeated competing Clan Teams.

Imagine a map of Japan, broken up into 32 provinces.

Each Province is the property of a real sengoku period Game Clan, noted by the Clan Moniker marker.

Contest Teams are assigned to these provinces, one each.

They assume Province ownership and the identity of the Game Clan.

Random Battle Assignments are set and fought.

The map is designed in such a way that every Province has sea access, so has access to every other Province, making the beginning random assignment and further developing assignments possible.

(No actual sea travel or battles necessary, this is just symbolic access)

The losers of the Battle take on the Game Clan identity of the winning Team; that is the Marker on their province changes, and the Contest continues.

Every time a Team wins a Battle, the province of their opponent comes under the banner of the winners Game Clan, the Team stays the same and in the same place.

Battle Assignments are actually being made on Swiss System format, but are being “displayed” on the map as changing territory ownership.

The Teams keep on competing until one Game Clan owns a majority of the property, even if this means only one more Province.

The essence of the display is that of the real situation. What everyone sees is that if you beat another Team, they then become Retainers of your Game Clan.

And in every Battle that they fight and win from then on, their winnings are added to that same Game Clan.

Of course if they loose, they come under the banner of the victors Game Clan, but all previous winnings (retainers gained) remain counted to their former Game Clan banner, and now under the control of their previous Retainers.

What is gained by displaying a Contest Map depiction of the Contest, (even though it is no different than a regular Swiss) is that all Teams are encouraged to continue, as they are then all part of something larger than them selves, even if they are not winning outright.



Ok, let’s just look at one of the situations above for explanation purposes.

We will just follow two Teams for simplicity.

Team 1 is Oda Clan.

Team 2 is Takeda Clan.

They are Battle and the following happens.

Team 1 wins and Team 2 becomes Oda also.

Four scenarios follow:

One: They go on and Team 1 loses the next Match and becomes a Retainer of the Hojo.
Team 2 is still Oda, and will continue to carry that banner to the end unless they loose to someone else.

Two: They go on and Team 2 looses the next Match and becomes a Retainer of the Usagui. Team 1 continues as Oda, and will carry that banner to the end unless they loose to someone else.

Three: They go on and neither one looses any more matches and the Contest ends in Round five. Team 1 will have five points, and team 2 will have 4 (having lost that first Battle). Team 1, the original Oda is the Champion Team, and with that glory is able to share their honors with other Teams that they have made Oda along the way.

Four: Both go on and are defeated, taking on the identity of their new Game Clan, and there is no more Oda.
The difference in thinking here is the difference between Clan Team, and Game Clan.

Clan Teams still win as usual, nothing has changed in that respect. The only thing different is that they change banners, as in the third case above, honoring the Clan Team that is the true Champion.

Loosing one battle more than any other Team makes you subordinate to them in score, even if you win the rest of your Matches, unless they loose to another Team and become equal to you in points. But then they would belong to the victorious Game Clan, and your Team would be head of the Game Clan that they were head of before.

The only thing that really changes is that no one is ever left out, all the way to the end. Being in the same Game Clan they can root for each other and achieve a sense of brotherhood, no matter what happens.

Below is the last of a few ideas on how to display the above, but not necessarily the final one

https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k...unHeader17.jpg


Qualify as a Swiss Extravaganza?



Classic Battles of course

[OUT4BLOOD]

Love the graphic^

[UglyJun]

well they seem to have fixed classic upgrades soo back to normal mode (classic) hehe

[Tomisama]

Thanks Jun

[Tomisama]

Besides the fact that Classic Battles unit upgrades work now, and three more maps have been added, there were quite a few changes to the unit specs themselves.

The following units were changed.

Oda Yari Ashigaru
Bow ashigaru
Oda Bow ashigaru
Chosokabe Bow ashigaru
Bow Warrior Monks
Chosokabe Bow Warrior Monks
Uesugi Bow Warrior Monks
Matchlock Ashigaru
Oda Matchlock Ashigaru
Bow Cavalry
Takeda Bow Cavalry
Katana Cavalry
Takeda Katana Cavalry
Yari Cavalry
Takeda Yari Cavalry
Fire Projecting Mangonels
Hojo Fire Projecting Mangonels
European Cannons
Hojo Cannons
Fire Rockets
Hojo Fire Rockets

For the details download the PDF, the revisions are in blue.

http://www.filejumbo.com/Download/61907CD73AF6F864

[Magyar Khan]

and teh army banners colours? why cant CA adress that/

[Tomisama]

and teh army banners colours? why cant CA adress that/

To me at least the gold (for yours), blue (your allies), and red (your enemies), banner trims are no worse than those of Empire and Napoleon.

That doesn’t mean that the situation is good, just tolerable.

I really don’t expect a change (soon anyway), but having a selectable set of banner colors to chose from would really open Classic up for some same-game-clan big battle fun.