Avatar Conquest/Unlock/Progression system - thoughts?

[||GUNSLINGER||]

Is it just me or is the whole concept of the Avatar Conquest system sucking the fun out of MP (well not to mention the crashes/bugs)? All I want to do at the moment is play some games with different units, different amounts of money, and play around to get a feel for everything. I don't want to waste time unlocking units, moving around a map and upgrading my general, it's just not my thing at all. I have a limited amount of time to play games at the moment and just want to jump in and get going. With this system there are never any games at all on the battle list and after several attempts noone is joining a hosted game. 1v1 MM is working OK but it's so limited and all units are locked I can't be bothered to put in hours learning the conquest system. I just want to play!!!

So I am alone or does anyone else miss the simple but effective approach to MP of old? By all means have this new system in there, but why not cater for everyone and allow people to just play for FUN as well if they choose to instead of forcing everyone to do this retarded conquest system?

[AMP]

You have classic mode in custom games, just everyone is hooked on the avatar system and the fact it's linked to the ladder and classic mode has no ladder.

[Centurion1]

i adore it. i like unlocking things and working towards goals.

[||GUNSLINGER||]

Tbh I was pretty irritated earlier when posting after so many crashes and inability to get a good game, have played a few 1v1 MM now though and enjoyed them so I guess it's a start. Hopefully the conquest mode will grow on me. Just hope the crashes/bugs get sorted soon and activity picks up.

BTW is 5000 koku the only way to play 1v1 MM or is it possible to play higher amounts? Can't find an option anywhere but thought I might be missing something as it means you have to field half-full armies?

[Centurion1]

10000 too ive played a few recently.

[||GUNSLINGER||]

10000 too ive played a few recently.

Hmm I've played about 15 matches so far and all 5k. Anyone else had many 10k matches? Any idea how it is decided/set?

I'm actually getting into Avatar Conquest a bit more now, guess my poor old brain just didn't like the change initially :P. 10k would definitely suit me better though 5k does seem a bit small.

[PanzerJaeger]

I would rather play classic battles, but that doesn't seem to be an option at the moment. I'm not sure how these upgrades and stuff effect balance.

I've only managed three games, but after my first I got a skill point and made my avatar an archer. In the subsequent two battles, I used him to essentially dictate the terms of engagement by harrying the enemy into committing forces piecemeal chasing after him until they got frustrated and threw all of them in. I was quite pleased with the outcomes, but it got me thinking... if I had that ability and they did not, is that really fair? For example, as a level 1 with only 1 skill point spent, am I at a significant material disadvantage to someone who has an uber avatar with, say, 10 skill points spent? Do generals become more expensive as they gain skills?

I'm sure all of this has been thought out and works well, I just haven't had enough time to read up on it.

[Postino]

Generals do become more expensive to balance that uberness. And really he's just one unit, that your opponent didnt have the archers around to shoot him down is his fault (as is the fact that he allowed you to goad him). Its the same with the veterans, the balance lie in the cost of the unit. Whether or not that IS balance is arguable.

I'm at rank 4 with like 20 battles. At some point during rank 3 I started encountering only 10k koku battles. It has do do either with the units you've unlocked or with the amount of territory on the conquest map you've gained, or maybe both.

I kind of like the avatar system. It's definately playing up to the way most current MP games have a similar achievement/unlock system. Overall I think it will add to the MP player base, giving new players something to work for (old players didn't require it to keep interested in playing). I think it also softens the MP learning curve quite a bit(also a plus for noobs). I definately like the degree of customization for veterans, I am kind of a fool for having a rainbow colored veteran army with quirky names...the buffs are nice too.

[Tomisama]

Whether or not that IS balance is arguable.

A very very large point in considering competition.

Who beat you, the player or his army?

I believe that at some point all serious players will move to Classic; except for the serious sharks, who will stay to feast on the minnows who will continue to wander in unawares.

[AMP]

I don't know... since classic has no ladder and that's what most people care about.

I just hate how you don't have any upgrades in classic - no old school honor upgrades or not even skill points that can be dished out. When I'm done picking my army and saw X amount of funds left over I liked being able to assign honor/valor upgrades to get it all spent. Now it's like "ok I need to swap this unit and this unit and this unit... there done... all spent now". ZzZz

[Postino]

According to others honor upgrades are there.

And you're absolutely right Tomi, classic is the only option for competition

[Tomisama]

According to others honor upgrades are there.

And you're absolutely right Tomi, classic is the only option for competition

Oh yes, and they are there for all units, allowing instant pre-battle incremental modification to suit.

Choose your battlefield clan, your army, adjust upgrades, all for the specific battle being hosted.

You are not locked (or unlocked) into anything.

There is no leader board for Classic (what a shame), but community competitions have their own scoreboards.

Now; if they would only get it all working

[Kocmoc]

According to others honor upgrades are there.

And you're absolutely right Tomi, classic is the only option for competition

actual its about fun and i see many people enjoying vets and tweaking their army.
That classic is the only option to play a competition I heavily doubt!

[Tempiic]

Yes, sorta gunslinger.

And the fact that custom mp games don't have a ladder and that you can't see in the lobby which hosted games are custom and which are avatar ones, kinda is a bit of an annoyance as well. But it would be much bearable if team MM would be much workable and would stop hosting at small unit sizes.

I also don't like the hero units, the great guard cav unit, and the cannon bune.

[Kocmoc]

Siege battles with huge units will be interesting. If I think about it, you wont get many units on the walls, right now i only played with small, but that could be a big spoiler.

[Sp00n]

I find the Avatar hugely addictive tbh and its obviously the way they are going with the Classic side being so limited, Ive seen very few playing classic which is sad but things move on, in terms of tournys it will be interesting to see how many embrace Classic or if Avatar based is the wish of the masses, time will tell I guess.

[Tomisama]

Clan Wars "may" offer both Avatar and Classic, and see how it goes.

But again, they both have to work for at least 3v3 first

It may be a case of which ever one works first


The problem I see with an Avatar Contest, is when not all players are the same level.

There is the enevatable delema waiting where a Team with less than all upgrades for all of its members is fighting one with more, and claims that the match was not fair.

What do you do with that?

Without same-unit availability balance, how can you have a creditable test of skills?

These contests are major undertakings for serious Clans.

Do you think that they will just toss it off to poor luck?

Multiplayer contests like any sporting event in the world, must have verifiable equal access to advantages, otherwise they will not happen at all.

I am totaly for the Avatar Map competitions and Leaderboards, and the non Match Made Avatar pick-up games, they are great fun and provide an introduction gateway to multiplayer for untold thousands of players.

But if they are not verifiably balanced (all players at the same level), they can not provide a bonified proof of the skills of one team over another, at a particular point in time.

Am I wrong?

[AggonyKing]

Lower level Avatars definitely have problems against higher level avatars. No matter how much the cost difference between avatars is. Not only that but also the vets you build could either be stronger or weaker than the vets your opponent has build. I do think there's way more chances for tactical builds on conquest mode. BUt classic mode does have a more level playing field.

[Dionysus9]

War has never been "fair". Each player has the ability to increase their Avatar rank up to 10. At 10, everyone has access to the same tactical advantages and are theoretically "equal" in terms of tactical opportunities.

So, depending on your perspective, the playing field is already "fair." If you don't want to work on your avatar's rank, then you will be at a disadvantage in an avatar tourney. If you join an avatar tourney with less than optimal avatar rank (i.e. rank 10), then you can expect to have a disadvantage against higher ranked avatars.

As long as that is made clear to prospective tourney-goers, I think its fine to have an avatar tourney.

There is also something to be said for the glory of knocking a higher ranked avatar off their perch. If I'm rank 6 and I beat you at rank 8, then there is more glory for me.

I think in 6 months (or less) most hardcore players and clans will have rank 10 avatars so it won't be a huge issue.

[AggonyKing]

this is not a war mate, this is just looking for balance for a tourney in a game :)

unless you prefer one side to have complete advantage over the other...

[Tomisama]

Hi Bach

Absolutly right, but we do not have 6 months. We have 32 four man teams (3v3 with one backup player required), thats 128 players that will have to be at level 10 in two weeks. Difficult!

And what happens if two days before the first match, your computer dumps, or an update fouls you, and you have to start all over in levels?

Of course all of this assumes that the game will be playable at that point.

But the fact is we have the Clans waiting now, and as soon as it is ready we need to play.


Edit: And well said AK.

[CanCritter]

soon as the advatar dealy stops amuseing me will be full tilt into classic for real battles...the advatar system to me is just a stroll through a amusment park...soon the novelty wears off we will be playing classic..of that l have no doughts

[Postino]

Ok, so limiting competition to just classical is a bit harsh, however the competition for avatar mode is built in. Classic mode does guarantee a level playing field: no uber veteran units or avatars and no buildings to change the terrain dynamic.

THe match maker system is definitely unbalanced, favoring quick setups to evenly matched players. If two players have the same unlocked units I might, just might, consider the cost difference between vets and basic units to be somewhat fair.

Overall S2 as it is now is not very good for competition. The lack of morale punishment for position(flanking and what not) is just too watered down. On top of that it is definitely something CA deliberately balanced that way. I suspect it was to make it more noob friendly but I find it to be annoying (other threads address this in more depth so I won't bother bitching about killing to a man units that are completely enveloped). Battle outcomes are completely unreliable. I've has=d situations where I should have lost poorly and instead found my self winning. Other situations where my entire army chokes on a couple of units. Skill does still play a part but not as much as it should. I have won the day after being completely out maneuvered by better players and that's not what should happen.

I do like the avatar thing, in a general way, and maybe this seems like a complete 180 but it's the difference of 40 hours of MP play.

[Tomisama]

The Avatar Progression is great fun.

The return gratification per hour of play is wonderful (see Star Trek “The Game”), and the experience worth the money all by its self.

But if you have been waiting ten years for piece-de-resistance recreation of original Shogun, we are not there yet.

I will be looking up a mod maker who has already offered his services, who was unfortunately shouted down on release day (not by me), who I think may be able to produce a master piece “Classic Classic” from the Classic mode.

Film at 11

[AggonyKing]

Film at 11

while we wait...

[Nigel]

Well, first off I believe that the Classical mode is certianly the main way to go for competitions, as only this offers a level starting point.


Interesting thought to also consider Avatar mode for competitions.
I like what Dionysus said :

If you don't want to work on your avatar's rank, then you will be at a disadvantage in an avatar tourney. If you join an avatar tourney with less than optimal avatar rank (i.e. rank 10), then you can expect to have a disadvantage against higher ranked avatars.

As long as that is made clear to prospective tourney-goers, I think its fine to have an avatar tourney.

There is also something to be said for the glory of knocking a higher ranked avatar off their perch. If I'm rank 6 and I beat you at rank 8, then there is more glory for me.

With that, all your work for building up your avatar kind of becomes part of the tournament.


Or you can look at it like this :
There are some Martial Arts tournaments which have weight categories and you can become either the light weight, middle weight or heavy weight champion. Then there is also the All Category class, where weights are not taken into consideration and this category is open to everyone who wants to take part. Of course the "big boys" have a significant advantage due to their body mass and hight (longer arms and legs) but you also get some "small guys" taking part and going up against the big boys using skill, speed and cunning. And if they win a match it is even more spectacular and their honour and glory is immense.

Just as long as it is clear to everyone beforhand, that this category is not "fair", it should be all right and you should not get those complaints that you are worried about. I am looking forward to see how it all pans out.

[Hunter KIng George]

soon as the advatar dealy stops amuseing me will be full tilt into classic for real battles...the advatar system to me is just a stroll through a amusment park...soon the novelty wears off we will be playing classic..of that l have no doughts

The avatar/map conquest is certainly fun and ADDICTIVE. I played a few classic battles but it seems everybody doing the avatar thing. Is everyone playing it for their personal achievement or playing it to advance their clan to the next round in the conquest map?

Critt, I know the RW's are on top of your group category and most likely adv to the next round...I hope your novelty wears off soon in case we get to face you next.

[Tomisama]

Just as long as it is clear to everyone beforhand, that this category is not "fair", it should be all right and you should not get those complaints that you are worried about. I am looking forward to see how it all pans out.

The level grouping has merit, but because that will always be changing, with three player team tournaments which can last up to six months, it probably wouldn’t be practical.

And the “not fair” agreement, is a good idea, and would probably work to keep order to a point. But the tension created in these tournaments can be extreme, and agreement or not, the claims of unfair, dishonorable, and cheater can, and has blown matches and whole contests to shreds.

You must have balance in contests. It is like gravity, you can’t stand up without it!

[East East Wild]

I think the avatar system is the best system ever.

I have all the total war series and have always abandoned singles campaign for MP games.

But MP games gets dulled fast and seeing new "rogue" players spaming powerful elite units has always kill my interest.

Now. in a way it kinds of balance things out, I don't have to worry about these new rogue players while I get to enjoy fun battles using
my veteran lower tier units against my oponents higher tier units or simply have a number advantage with fresh reasonable good troops against smaller elite armies.

I think its the coolest system so far.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Siege battles with huge units will be interesting. If I think about it, you wont get many units on the walls, right now i only played with small, but that could be a big spoiler.

I played them with Large units and yes Kocmoc, even with Large you can't get as many on the walls though I don't know about Ultra though.