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Thread: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

  1. #31

    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Quote Originally Posted by xploring View Post
    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...e-Market-Chain

    There is a very detailed analysis of the economics of the market chain in the link above. The author made a simple error early on in his calculation, but he has said he will correct it soon, so maybe check back later on if interested.

    (I haven't gone through it yet though.)
    His math is totally wrong because of the "simple error" he made. He calculated +wealth as +money per turn, not +wealth*tax rate.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Quote Originally Posted by MCM View Post
    His math is totally wrong because of the "simple error" he made. He calculated +wealth as +money per turn, not +wealth*tax rate.
    Wow, MCM, good work! Now perhaps we can take into account if the need for metsuke changes the equation? Something like: if you need another metsuke, you have to either upgrade a market or take up a building slot in another province, where the use of one building slot ~= one castle upgrade (not really, but you see what I mean). This is necessarily going to be a bit more social-sciency, estimating the value of a metsuke.

  3. #33
    Member Member Rothe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Someone else correct me if I am wrong, but I think you only get one Metsuke per market chain, not per market upgrade.
    I think the same goes for ninja and monks. The later buildings only give XP to the agent.

    Having seen the situation for couple of years after a realm divide in my game, I see the problem of rice exchange+ level markets. They really hurt me since I could also use the buffer of food surplus to conquer provinces with large castles but small farms level. Now I have to avoid them and try to build max farms everywhere - land consolidation takes so long to build that my advances in the campaign are limited by it. Having the extra food from my 5-6 market chains would help a lot.

    I really wish CA will repair it by making the market chain buildings better (perhaps dependent on the number of provinces) or the food surplus less useful.

    I would not mind if a few fully upgraded chains would be the optimal solution for the economy. Still, it seems a bit odd that you have to leave markets at level 1 just because of the food issue. Sake den's are actually much better buildings than markets in the sense that you can get happiness and wealth from them without sacrificing anything really.
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  4. #34
    Medevil Member Dead Guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Yeah I think you're right about the agents. I think it's one per chain, regardless of level so to speak.

    Might be worth it to build one of the top level markets to get +2 xp Metsuke though? If you bother to get that far with the Chi, that is.

    Though I consider Metsuke to be the least useful agent to be honest. I rarely bribe, Monks can boost happiness in a region (right?) and ninjas can "apprehend" ;)

  5. #35

    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Top-level market for a Metsuke isn't such a great idea. The marginal tax increase might not even off-set the amount lost by investing in the buildings in the first place, plus the Chi research issue, as you mention.

    You can get +2 xp Metsuke by building a Market in a province with Philosophical Tradition, too. Though I suppose Philosophical Tradition+top level Market upgrade would mean +4 xp Metsuke, so I guess it's the same question either way - how much money per turn does a good metsuke in a good province get you? Not just % tax difference, but real, effective difference. I don't have any clue how administrative costs work, but those seem like they decrease the actual value of a good metsuke by quite a bit.

    What I would really love to know more about is how tax rate affects growth. The growth malus from taxes seems to change a lot. It might be that having a good metsuke is overall not that valuable because the increased taxes slow growth more. In other words, taxing 150 at 30% is really not better than taxing it at 25%, if that 150 is going to grow 1 wealth less under 30%.

  6. #36
    Member Member Zarky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    You can get +2 experience levels for metsuke from philosophical tradition by building a law court, which itself increases your tax rate. It becomes a question of whether you want to sacrifice 23% bonus to research for increased income. Building top level market to a philosophical tradition province would therefore give at least +3 experience levels, which gives you total of +5 cunning when overseeing towns just from skill tree, add that to the stars you already have and that's an immense increase to your taxes.
    Having metsuke in a town has no effect whatsoever to the town wealth growth. The negative effect of "tax level" depends on your global tax rate, but it gets higher as town wealth growth grows. For example 5 town wealth growth would cause -1 due to "tax level" while 10 would cause -2 (completely arbitrary numbers, actual amount seems to be higher and more complicated than that).

    There is no negative effect whatsoever in hiring and having metsuke oversee your towns. This is only purpose I use them for as I too do my "apprehending" with ninjas :D
    A metsuke can give you hundreds more tax income per turn even with few stars and mediocre town wealth.

    Administrative cost works the same way it does in every total war, the more provinces, the higher your administrative cost.
    I believe in economy panel it tells you your total administrative cost. It basically means that the shown percentage is taken from your total tax rate per province. 50% administrative cost would take 15% away from a province that has total 30% tax rate, but 25% away from a province with 50% tax rate.

    So if you invest in chi research, it would definitely be worth it to build a top level market in a province with philosophical tradition.
    Last edited by Zarky; 03-30-2011 at 07:28.
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  7. #37

    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarky View Post
    So if you invest in chi research, it would definitely be worth it to build a top level market in a province with philosophical tradition.
    Maybe. It'd be interesting to do the math. If you had a 10k wealth province, 5% more would be 500 per turn, though really less after administrative costs. Hard to know without seeing the rest of the empire. I think it would be difficult, though.

    I can't do all the math right now since I'm at work, and don't have access to the basic numbers (if someone could post the basic building stats for each Market upgrade level that would be awesome.)
    Last edited by MCM; 03-29-2011 at 15:39.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Guy View Post
    Yeah I think you're right about the agents. I think it's one per chain, regardless of level so to speak.
    This is correct but there is also a max limit of 5, regardless of how many chains you have. You can never have more than 5 Metsuke, 5 Ninjas, 5 Monks, etc.

  9. #39
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Quote Originally Posted by MCM View Post
    I can't do all the math right now since I'm at work, and don't have access to the basic numbers (if someone could post the basic building stats for each Market upgrade level that would be awesome.)
    https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/index.php/Market_TWS2
    Stats are from the demo encyclopedia, and the building costs themselves are missing, but I believe the effects to be correct.
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  10. #40
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Great work MCM!

    I had thought that the market chain from the Rice Exchange onwards wasn't worth it, but it appears it's actually costs you money in any realistic scenario. I'm sure this wasn't intended! Although I would still consider building up the market chain in a province with a courthouse, assuming I have the right Chi arts, to get the +4 to metsuke honour (+2 isn't that much, tbh, as a few successful missions will get you that), but 4 takes a while.
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  11. #41
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Quote Originally Posted by therother View Post
    Great work MCM!

    I had thought that the market chain from the Rice Exchange onwards wasn't worth it...
    So did I, therother. It is always gratifying to have one’s own hunches substantiated by another. I looked askance at rice exchanges straight away and haven’t built any at all. Thanks for the validation, MCM.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    The only caveat I would make is that it's possible that a single Market chain upgrade combined with your Infamous Mizu Shobai District (you can only build one) might be worth it, because it would be taxed far higher than other districts, and the town bonus would be relatively huge, so it's possible that losing 2 in every province at say, 30 provinces, for a loss of 60 at 25% tax, would be offset by gaining an extra 30 per turn taxed at 75%. The best way to do that would be to combine it with some other extremely powerful resource, like Philosophical Tradition or Gold Mine.

    The only thing is that this just a relatively impractical thing to do; it would take dozens of turns to construct all the necessary buildings and research the necessary Chi Arts, some of which you might not otherwise use at all (like Ninjutsu Mastery). I think I'll look into trying this in my next game. I also want to look into the tax rate slider versus maintenance costs for extra garrisons vs growth penalties, and administrative costs.

  13. #43
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    The cost of diverting Bushido or Chi research is tough to quantify. It is certain though that getting near the bottom of either tree takes a lot of time that could have yielded advantages sooner with the other discipline.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  14. #44
    Member Member Rothe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Quote Originally Posted by MCM View Post
    The only caveat I would make is that it's possible that a single Market chain upgrade combined with your Infamous Mizu Shobai District (you can only build one) might be worth it, because it would be taxed far higher than other districts, and the town bonus would be relatively huge, so it's possible that losing 2 in every province at say, 30 provinces, for a loss of 60 at 25% tax, would be offset by gaining an extra 30 per turn taxed at 75%. The best way to do that would be to combine it with some other extremely powerful resource, like Philosophical Tradition or Gold Mine.

    The only thing is that this just a relatively impractical thing to do; it would take dozens of turns to construct all the necessary buildings and research the necessary Chi Arts, some of which you might not otherwise use at all (like Ninjutsu Mastery). I think I'll look into trying this in my next game. I also want to look into the tax rate slider versus maintenance costs for extra garrisons vs growth penalties, and administrative costs.
    If the game would last for double the amount of turns, then I would be interested in this option.
    Actually, a mod for extending the time period would be nice - sometimes I would like a longer game. That would also make it more reasonable for some of the techs and building lines, so that there would be a game mode that actually lets you make use of them without sacrificing too much.
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  15. #45

    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rothe View Post
    If the game would last for double the amount of turns, then I would be interested in this option.
    Actually, a mod for extending the time period would be nice - sometimes I would like a longer game. That would also make it more reasonable for some of the techs and building lines, so that there would be a game mode that actually lets you make use of them without sacrificing too much.
    Mod for all campaign victories condition extended to 1640

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=438857

    Wonder how many generals will live to see the end. Would they all die of old age, or can new heirs be made up...


    And food mod for market chain is out too: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=439607
    Last edited by xploring; 03-31-2011 at 15:46.

  16. #46
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to build markets - only in fertile lands?

    Hypothetically, if you have +5 food in 10 provinces from the example:

    Make RE (Rice Exchanges) in the top 5 income provinces that have a tax boost from a Metsuke:
    (The actual tax rate with Metsuke varies, but I've used 50% with the Metsuke and 25% without to keep the math simple. I also know this to be an attainable rate from experience.)

    Each single RE costs 1600 koku
    This adds +300 per turn at 50% Metsuke tax rate = 150 per turn
    1600/150 per turn = 10.67 or 11 turns
    150/turn x 11 turns = 1650
    It takes 5 turns to build the RE and an additional 11 turns for a ROI of 50 at one RE.

    50 x 5 RE provinces with Metsuke = 250 total ROI after 16 turns.

    Unfortunately, for the 16 turns you lose +5 growth for 10 provinces.
    5 in ten provinces = 50 per turn lost growth
    So after 16 turns, that's 800 total lost growth.
    Breaking this down:
    400 total lost growth for the 5 Metsuke provinces at a tax rate of 50% = 200 lost income
    400 total lost growth for the other 5 provinces at a tax rate of 25% = 100 lost income
    So, 300 total lost income after 16 turns.

    250 (total ROI) - 300 (total lost income) = -50 net loss after 16 turns.

    However, you would continue to make (5 x 150 = 750/turn) total RE income from the 5 provinces with Metsuke.
    You would now also get +5 growth from the RE over the Market in each of the 5 Metsuke provinces. The +5 replaces the lost +5 growth.
    (-5 x 25% = -1.25 at each 5 remaining provinces) = -6.25 rounded down to 6 continuing lost income

    750 (total RE income) - 6 (continuing lost income) = 744 koku/turn added income

    Thus, you get (744-50 = 694) koku profit after 17 turns and 744 koku profit every turn thereafter. Further, if you conquered the whole map, you would continue to make a profit.
    So, build Rice Exchanges as described.

    P.S. Here's the argument presented in the extreme cases.

    A. 10 provinces with a Stronghold, Land Consolidation, and a Market
    or
    B. 10 provinces with a Stronghold, Land Consolidation, and a Merchant Guild

    With A, you get +20 Food and each province gets +5 growth from the Market for +25 overall growth.

    With B, you get zero Food and each province gets +20 growth from the Merchant Guild for +20 growth overall. However, you also get an extra +800 commerce.

    At a delta of +5 growth, the total wealth in A would catch up to B after (800/5 = 160 turns). Of course, the wealth in B would have been generating much more in taxes from the additional commerce for those turns. Let's start at A and spend 5,000 koku and 11 turns for the Rice Exchange and Merchant Guild to build up each province to B. Even at 10% tax, that would then get us 80 x 149 remaining turns = 11,920 koku per province. So 11920-5000 for the build up still gives 6920 profit. At the same tax rate, A would need over a hundred turns to earn this sum through the continued difference in growth and would thus seldom ever catch up before the end of the game.
    Last edited by Agent Miles; 01-02-2018 at 16:20. Reason: Additional info
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