The Truth About Swords

[Tomisama]

Why are sword units less effective than spear units in the game? The answer just may be the truth.
It seems what we know about Samurai is mostly from a later period, but in the Sengoku (15th to begining of the 17th centurys) the weapons of choice were the Yumi, then Yari, and then the Teppo. Enjoy!

The Soul of the Samurai?
Misconceptions of the Japanese Sword

By A. Knowles

The Japanese sword has acquired mystical significance in the wake of Samurai history, but to what extent is this image justified? This article will attempt to shatter a few myths surrounding both the use and omnipotence of the sword in the samurai arsenal. Tokugawa Ieyasu's famous remark that the sword was the 'soul of the samurai' should not be taken at face value. This was most likely a comment made reflecting the relatively peaceful years of Sekigahara (1600) to Osaka (1614) when battlefield weapons (i.e. firearms, spears and bows) were being pushed to the back of samurai life and the sword as the weapon of everyday life.

Read the continuation at:

http://www.samurai-archives.com/sts.html

[Kagemusha]

That is absolutely true. During the Sengoku Jidai period katana was a side arm, not the main weapon of Samurai.

[AggonyDuck]

Except the sword units aren't less effective than spears. :)

[Tomisama]

Except the sword units aren't less effective than spears. :)

Sorry, thought of this because of Kocmoc's post on the level 10 at 22k situation, where everybody is going to end up.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...Ca-call-it-22k

Except me, of course...

[OUT4BLOOD]

by spears Kocmoc means naginata, not yari

[Tomisama]

by spears Kocmoc means naginata, not yari

Not to diminish my error of lumping naginata and yari (mentally both polearms), in looking up the actual use of naginata by Samurai, I found that warrior monks wore armor!

In no uncertain terms in many places in Turnbull’s book Samurai Warfare he mentions Sohei armor (never says anything about no armor). On horse, on foot, and in one passage he even calls out heavy-armor that made them so weary that it caused their death, this indirectly as they were shot with arrows in their fatigue. The thing about their amour is that it was always hidden under the monk’s cowl, and maybe where the no amour idea comes from (or maybe it was the story about the arrows, that you would think that armor would have protected them although it didn’t).

The reason that I looked up the Samurai naginata combination, was that I was pretty sure that the naginata was a weapon favorite of earlier years, and lost favor to the yari over time. That besides being then taken up by the monks during the Sengoku, it was considered a women’s weapon in later years, and still is today. But you do see them in many pictures of Samurai from the time, so who knows?

[Kocmoc]

lets get teh facts straigt.

Duck probably refer to the fact, that swords beat spears. Thats correct.

Now directly to the real problem. Armor and universal units. Swords have low armor, the katana got 5 (i hope im not wrong) and the ND just 2.
If you look at naginata with 9 armor, its a huge difference, especially if you look at the 22k games and what will be used.

While in 10 or 14k games mostly a few samurai units will be used, lets say 3-6, in a 22k game you hardly will see other units than samurai.
The problem is, that almost every single samurai unit fight till death and dont rout, you really have to finish the units off.

The signs are clear. Missles have a harder time to kill an armor-9 unit than an armor-2 or 5 unit.
Followed by other problems such as:

- bubblegum units, which will make your charge get stucked somewhere. If you bring a ND you want a clean charge! Thats possible in the first clash, after that you will have a hard time, while everything is mixed up like hell.
- armor, If you didnt ripped most missles, you have a very hard time to get your ND unit in, with 2 armor missles eat this unit.

While good player might be able to get some sword units clean in a spear, most people wont be able to do this.
So the trend is there and clear, 22k the balance is out of hands. I dont want to take care for the cavs, especially as the charge is bugged, the outcome too random. I go full spear-melee and get me some missles who are on steroids. If swods beat spears doesnt matter a second.

Bad player who lose the shotout, want to have a chance to win the rush after, so they go for highest armor in game!

[KrooK]

Naginata have other advantage - anti cav bonus. Experienced player will not allow enemy on charging on his infantry.
However less experienced player are doing it. Charging vs naginata is bad option. Charging vs sword unit - I like it.

[Nelson]

The signs are clear. Missles have a harder time to kill an armor-9 unit than an armor-2 or 5 unit.

Too right! Even in SP I have no interest in spending all the koku needed to make nodachi that will get riddled by AI archers. I expect them to be so fragile as to need too much attention.

Here's another fact to go with the truth about swords: a soldier's melee weapon had no relationship to the effectiveness of his armor in protecting him from missiles. An arrow had the same impact upon a man's armor regardless of the weapon in his hand. Nodachi, katana and yari samurai should have the same armor values.

This is a prime case of where diddling with realistic unit values to get a more diverse order of battle leads to problems. Once you head down this path this is where you end up. You get results on the battlefield that don't make sense.

SP and MP alike would be more sound if the devs would keep it real.

History doesn't get in the way. It shows the way!