March 29th MP Patch seems to be an improvement

[Dionysus9]

This weekend I had a hard time getting any Shogun 2 games off the ground. Yesterday evening, post-patch, I was able to play multipled 1v1's back to back without having to restart the game and without any crashes.

I haven't tried 2v2, 3v3, and there the only Classic game was full....but at least on the 1v1 MM front, things have much improved. Thanks CA!

[DthB4Dishonor]

I can confirm that the 3v3 was working very well yesterday. Its not perfect, put me on the opposite team from my 2 clan mates once but it worked well about 4 other times. The 1v1 is very much improved also. I can now go in back to back 1v1 games without having to restart game and/or possibly rebooting my pc.

In 2v2 and 3v3 battles when opponent(s) quit they give you the win. So in this respect its actually better than 1v1.

[AMP]

Yes no more constant restarting... yay! Really though get rid of small unit sizes I mean what the ****! Also lower that damn 22k for rank 10 vs rank 10, that's insane, where's the morale, where's the purity of the battles like the old days, MORALE!

[UglyJun]

play classic :)

[KrooK]

There is big problem with 2vs2,3vs3 and 4vs4. Even if one player drop, game ends.
Its very bad - good team can win even 2+CPU vs 3. Now no matter what is happening - you are loosing.
Even if enemy has 1 unit vs your 20.

[AMP]

Classic would be nice Jun, but how many people are playing that compared to MM? Also I like the skill system, just wish classic mode had skills as well to finish off extra funds instead of tweaking out your army forever to spend it all.

I was wrong after 4 MM 1vs1 I had to restart stw2 and close it using control+alt+delete, so that problem is still there. I guess somethings aren't fixable.

[Kocmoc]

Well, nothing really changed for teamgames. I still have to restart the game all the time, it get stuck while searching a lot and you have to restart over and over again.
It also happens quite a lot, that 3 or 4 are on the same side and its not a 2v2. If you interested, i made some screenshots in Steam (steamname - Wolf_Kocmoc).

The ladder seems to work, people say the coward things also work mostly.
Avatar tree seems to work now.
Summary, ladder got better, yes. But the other problems are more or less about the same.

The question is, what is CA doing about the balance problems?
Whats with the 22k games?
Whats with the bugged retainer?
Whats with the bugged maps?
Whats with the terrible moral?
Whats done about the strong effect of general?
Whats done about the artillery?
....

[Tomisama]

Classic would be nice Jun, but how many people are playing that compared to MM? Also I like the skill system, just wish classic mode had skills as well to finish off extra funds instead of tweaking out your army forever to spend it all.

You must be in Normal mode, not Classic mode AMP.

I don't understand, Classic is completely ajustable, each unit has 10 skill and cost levels.

For example:

General ** (2 stars) - Unit strength 30
Rank - ^ ^ ^ ^ o ^ ^ ^ ^
Cost 300 350 405 465 530 600 675 725 840 930
Morale 15 16 16 17 18 18 19 19 20 21
Attack 14 15 16 17 18 18 19 20 20 21
Defense 6 7 8 8 9 11 11 12 13 13
Charge 15
Armor 7

Too bad it dosent work right.

The SP Custom mode works fine, but the MP Classic (which is exactly the same) hangs since the patch (some maybe before).

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

MP seems a bit better .

[AMP]

Yes classic mode has honor upgrades, but I was hoping for skills like the avatar system. Why do I want to increase attack and defense on my missiles units? I like the option of tweaking and clan skill points would've been nice to have as well.

[DthB4Dishonor]

MP is much more stable. The big question here is are long standing tournaments and leagues going to use the Classic Battle System or the MP Battle List Avatar system?

P.S.EliteofKingWarman your inbox is full. Delete some stuff so I can send PM.

[UglyJun]

what i cant believe is that the basic mp part the classic has been neglected totally and is unplayable right now ?
Amp would be nice to combine the 2 modes regarding the tweaking :)

[Kocmoc]

As mentioned in another tread already, the classic mod as it is right now is almost unplayable. Heavy lags, colors and the way you have to choose units is not good.
Unless CA patch this ( they hardly will work on this, before the "normal" MM-way is working properly) I cant imagine that we play classic at all.

There is much to patch still. If you look at all the balancing issues.... its so much. Bugs everywhere, UI is not good as well, maps are bugged.
Since CA seems to work only on the stability right now, I cant even imagine when we ever will see patches sorting out other problems.
2 weeks gone now and time is running, I was pretty nice after the first week and the quick patch, but now I start to worry a bit.

I miss the long goals, which cant be only the MM (actual you still have to reset game a lot) and some gameplay issues which seems to me also very important.

1. artillery problems - I mentioned my "artillery button", which would allow artillery, if both sides click on the button, else no arty
2. 22k, we need a much lower max fund, most people seems to agree about 10-12k, also add smaller steps from 5-10k
3. moral penalties for flanking, rearing
4. Ability Timer & CD and a better description of retainer and what the effects actual are
5. turn the moral penalties on, since you took em off (or made them extreme low)


Point 1 & 2 are so high important, It should get fixed within 1 week.

[Nigel]

Also and alas, as we are talking of the improvements this thread should have brought, the Dishonourable Coward Trait bug is back.

I just cought it yesterday, during one of my bravest battles against an 8* General.

[Jochi Khan]

Also, having to Ctrl Alt Delete to get out of game is back.
Shogun not responding.
I understand ^Marcus^ was having problems with this last night.

[AMP]

For some reason it gets worse over time having to control alt delete more and more, where it use to be I could play 10 games in a row before having to do that, now it's down to every game sometimes.

I don't care about a Dishonourable Coward Trait which dose nothing at all as far as I know and there is much more important things to worry about.

I agree with all of kocmoc's points all 1 thru 5.

1. I don't know why we have siege engines in land battles with stw2 anyway. I haven't a match because of one yet, but that's not the point, it's just silly. There is no attacker or defender and when someone brings one it's like saying there is. O.o

2. The biggest problem I found with 22k is that you can't even really spend it all and the game forces you to use hero units right away if you want to come close to spending it all the first few times going into 22k. Also it forces you to get rid of your tweaked out ashi vets, which I can understand getting rid of some if need be, but not almost all of them or all of them, if you wanna have a lineup of sam vets incase you get back to back 22k games.

3. If we had good morale/combat penalties for flanking attacks, rear attacks, and sandwiching units then high funds with all units of base morale of 10 and higher wouldn't be a problem or shouldn't be one anyway.

4. Yes! we need info and I've said that a dozen times... I wanna know how much and what something dose before picking or using it and not have to spend hours and hours of play testing just to find out that overall it's not worth it's value - skill points, abilities, retainers.

5. I think part of the problem if no one hasn't noticed that when you flank/rear attack a unit already in combat, is that there as so many 1vs1s going on and finishing moves, where soldiers can't be touched and your soldiers have to wait until it's over to engage them. lol? I know soldiers assist in combat % that are just standing there, but not in the 1vs1 duals and finishing moves untouchable soldiers...

Thanks Jun for agreeing with my idea of combining the skill system with classic mode. I got dissed though by tons of single player guys who are just starting the MP scene saying "it's to much like the avatar system" and said "no, we don't need that". In fact alot of my ideas get shut down by the over whelming rookies to MP who aren't experienced in RTS gaming at all, yet think they know what's best? You also have to think in long terms like the next TWs, where this is a good idea with skills and tweaks and if they don't have an avatar system, will there be tweaking of skills? Like it matters anyway combining the skill system with classic mode because classic mode isn't ranked!

[UglyElmo2]

Thanks Jun for agreeing with my idea of combining the skill system with classic mode. I got dissed though by tons of single player guys who are just starting the MP scene saying "it's to much like the avatar system" and said "no, we don't need that". In fact alot of my ideas get shut down by the over whelming rookies to MP who aren't experienced in RTS gaming at all, yet think they know what's best? You also have to think in long terms like the next TWs, where this is a good idea with skills and tweaks and if they don't have an avatar system, will there be tweaking of skills? Like it matters anyway combining the skill system with classic mode because classic mode isn't ranked!

You know me AMP, I fully support tweaking units. I love to surprise my enemy with unusual, but effective upgrading. Like handgunners, my all-missile army, and my multi-level upgraded yari samurai army. Plus, you and your Irish Bonnacht army etc . . . I don't care as much for realism as I do for variety and balance.

[quadalpha]

Using alt+f4 instead of the proper quit button might help a bit with not shutting down completely.

[Tempiic]

The SP Custom mode works fine, but the MP Classic (which is exactly the same) hangs since the patch (some maybe before).

Not completely the same. I noticed that the SP custom mode has an adjustable funds option while the MP one does not.

[Kocmoc]

Im sure, that flanking and rearing wont get activated anymore. The problem is, that once units are in fight and bunched up (bubble-gum-units), there will always be "something" in the rear or on the flank.

If flanking and rearing should ever get back into the game, than we will see much more clustered units in the first place, so you can actual clearly say, where on earth the back of a unit is.
More clustered units means, that the looking of the game will be less attractive. Im sure CA did invest a lot of time to make all this units act like they do right now.

This sais, Im in heavy doubts that we will see more clustered units and this means, that we wont see rearing or flanking back at all. That rearing/flanking is off, I call almost a fact (cant be 100% sure, but i hardly doubt it)

One problem I see today is, that I only see full stat-numbers, If you look at a unit with mouseover and look at moral, attack.... You see full numbers, there are no 5,5 or something. I think, that the penalties will work the same way, they probably use full number. There are hidden moral penalties, mostly seen on the "bar" on the flag of the unit and shown numbers in the mouseover info.

I wrote about my tests in other treads already, to make it short:

1. You can do masstests, by moving one unit close to 10 of the enemy, you see the flag-bar droping and a low moral unit will waver, it wont run! Its the outnumber factor, in old days it was 1:10 and 1:100. I believe its still the same today.

2. If you now move a unit in the rear of this one unit, you wont see any different, same goes for the flank.

3. now test all the other things, we got a wavering unit, almost routing and rearing does nothing, flanking does nothing, "scaring enemies" does nothing, whistling arrow does nothing...
Every single moral penalty in game, does nothing at all!

Simple tests, you can do by yourself, try to fatigue the unit and so on.

Im sure, most things are taken off, so far only kill and quick kill drop moral, same as gen not around or many units dead in army, not to mention killed gen.



What really makes me going mad is the fact, that CA doesnt share any information. They tell us, that they are aware of our issues, bringing second patch, which change almost nothing apart from ladder and coward.
I still have to restart game all the time, client mistakes, resets and so on...

Some things will take time to fix, but to change 22k and artillery is a matter of one day or even less!


They could argue, that they dont use so many moral penalties to make it easyer for new player, but honestly.... we saw 200+ in most channels the first week, now we are below 30 in most channels, most of the new player are gone soon. While we are left, with a bad ladder, bad clancampaign (Id like to challange other clans and not the 300+ player who lose twice as much as winning), not working MM, not working classic mod, chrashing game, games where we see 4:0 or 3:1, with bald balance, arty allowed, too high funds, bad designed moral, bugged cav, bugged missles, bugged maps, border bugs, movement bugs, terrible designed stats.... I could continue...

Most of us keeps playing because they hope that CA will fix it. If they would say: "no, we never will get more moral penalties back" or "we wont fix most of the things" or "22k will keep into the game" or "artillery wont get removed".... than many of us would stop playing.

[UglyJun]

ok all we ask for to give us back stw with new graphics engine and some a little extras . what we got is acrcade crap with kushafuden. and the basic mp is broken why are they going backwards stw was good. the moral flanking all the stuff u cant manage in stw2 i cant understand what they where thinking ????

[quadalpha]

Wait wait. I obviously haven't been paying enough attention, but are you saying that the morale hit from flanking and encirclement is gone?

[Kocmoc]

Wait wait. I obviously haven't been paying enough attention, but are you saying that the morale hit from flanking and encirclement is gone?

Yes, thats exactly what Im saying!

There are a few additional information to this:

1. It is possible that rearing and flanking is still around, but than it is extremely low (this means that we speak about 0,* numbers)
2. It is possible that certain moral penalties are not cumulative and only the highest penalty is taken

To give you a picture:

Since outnumber effects are still there (1:10 and 1:100) you can put the lowest moral unit next to 20 enemy units.
The missle will drop moral (you can see it at the bar) and even start to waver, now if other moral penalties would have any effect, the unit should rout at some point, right?

I placed one of the 20 unit in the back of this wavering unit, one on the flank. We got scare enemy next to it, whistling arrows and a monk with warcry. Guess what...
Nothing happened!

The 2 points mentioned above show you what can be possible.

If just the highest penalty is taken, than the outnumber effect will be stronger as any other penalty, so you wont see rearing having any effect.


Now I personal think its number 1, since you can put 2 units in rear and flank and nothing happens to the moral bar on the unit flag!


Im almost sure, that its taken off completely, online you can already say, that flanking and rearing is pointless. Rearing has only one effect, and thats a higher killingspeed.
The game is done to killingspeed, nothing else. Apart from a few moral effect, such as gen dies or gen not in range, rally.... there is no real moral anymore.

The tests I described you can easy redo yourself.

[Rothe]

Good that I also happened to read the MP forum, even if I don't MP.

If CA wants to have a newbie friendly system, they should just have a few morale settings that enable/disable some of the modifiers to morale, instead of removing the penalties altogether.

[Kocmoc]

Good that I also happened to read the MP forum, even if I don't MP.

If CA wants to have a newbie friendly system, they should just have a few morale settings that enable/disable some of the modifiers to morale, instead of removing the penalties altogether.

CA seems to think, that putting moral penalties off, will make it easier for new player, which isnt the case!
Till a certain degree it make it easier, since you can now move terrible and still wont get punished for it. The problem is, that at this point people are not really new anymore.

In fact, the game got dumped down to a degree, where the whole idea of the game is questionable. We got a game now, almost without moral, at 22k it is moral off.
This has nothing to do with TW anymore, the moralsystem was the heart of the game, now we only have a normal arcade game left, where its all about killing speed and some counter. Play C&C, WC3 or SC2 is actual better, since those game are better balanced, more stable, with better ladder, better competition.

CA destroy their basement, kicking moral off like this, is the same as shooting in your foot while trying to win a marathon!

I explained it a few times and I could make some long read post here, so just in short.

With those rubberband-bubble-gum units, it is so hard to see where the back or the front of a unit is, once they are bunched up and in fight.
Im pretty sure, that the units change back and front a lot, with all those mens running wild individual, this way you would have a unit changing their back and front all the time, which means, that a unit would switch between reared and not reared fulltime.

The only solution would be much more clustered units, so you and also the Computer could clearly say where on earth the front of the unit is.
The same time, the nice little animations and all the little mens running somewhere wouldnt be in the game as it is right now.
This is really hard to change and I doubt CA will ever work on this again. They sold the copies!

[quadalpha]

Good lord, that's terrible. I've been getting the vague feeling that something isn't quite right, no flanking penalty would explain it!