What do we know about the economy?

[aimlesswanderer]

Hang on, metsuke boost tax? Mine were wasting time scouting for enemy armies. Crap, best leave that to my bludging ninja. If the tax bonus is level dependant, you should have one high level market, to train tax maximising metsuke. I have definitely become more selective with what buildings I build, especially troop training ones - I used to use up every spot I could. And am much more careful when building buildings which use food.

[Zarky]

Metsuke give the 5% per star, but 1st experience level nets them the skill that adds 2 cunning when overseeing towns, but 2nd experience level only affects overseeing armies while 3rd would give more to overseeing towns. While overseeing towns, you gain exp so slowly that you probably won't make it to 4 stars if starting from 3, but you can make it from 2 to 3 stars, also netting you a possibly beneficial retainer.
And for me at least all metsuke are recruited very early, mostly from a philosophical tradition province which I develop towards improved research.

Of course if you ever get a top level market to a province with magistrate/law court, you could build ships and drown your metsuke 1 by 1 and recruit new ones.

[Rothe]

Hang on, metsuke boost tax? Mine were wasting time scouting for enemy armies. Crap, best leave that to my bludging ninja. If the tax bonus is level dependant, you should have one high level market, to train tax maximising metsuke. I have definitely become more selective with what buildings I build, especially troop training ones - I used to use up every spot I could. And am much more careful when building buildings which use food.

For building even one high level market you need several things:
- Koku amount of the building upgrades
- Time - the total build time is quite long. You could be using the investment for other valuable stuff earlier (like troops)
- Chi research (I think the rice exchange tech you get when going for farms, but the otheres I am not so sure about)
- 2+ food

For me, the benefit from building a merchant guild or the top level building seems like a waste even with the higher level Metsuke.
It costs a lot, you lose 2 food which is 2 x your number of towns in growth and the research I could be using for better things.

I agree a lot with Zarky that the philosophical tradition is the way to go. Or, get a small apprehension bonus and hope for a busy place with low level agents to level up your Metsuke via apprehension, and then take them to oversee the things.
Even the second level of Metsuke is good enough in my opinion compared to building stuff to get more, unless the buildings also net you other things like research.

[Rothe]

I have been trying to look into what determines the value of my trade with my trade partners, and surely more provinces = more profit. Still, I don't really know if it is in fact based on wealth, or just number of provinces.

I could see a clear difference when I had Takeda as my partner, and they slowly were cut down in number of provinces. I think at first I had like 3.5k value on the route, and later on it dwindled down to 2.5k and a bit later to 2k. They still have about 4 provinces left. Sadly, I lack a spy (or other info) about the wealth of their provinces...

[Daveybaby]

I'm finding the best approach is to only upgrade a few strategically located provinces and leave all other provinces at either first or second level (i.e. as i've found them, i never actually upgrade them) with a variety of markets, shrines and tea-houses, as appropriate to the location. These less developed provinces almost never have any troop production facilities (apart from the odd siege engineer, or occasionally to take advantage of unit bonuses). Markets are never upgraded past the first level.

Thus i have a small number of fully upgraded provinces each of which are capable of producing all varieties of units, at high skill levels (ideally located on armourer/weaponsmith or other bonus giving locations). These elite troops are then padded out with utterly mundane zero skill yari and bow ashigaru recruited from the more numerous underdeveloped provinces.

This lets you get massive growth in the early game (which is when it really matters) by having lots of surplus food, which you can keep going all the way through the mid game until you hit the realm divide event. At this point its probably worth sacrificing that extra food and upgrading your markets to boost your cash now that youve lost a lot of trade income.

It goes without saying that farms are upgraded everywhere as a priority, though i try to restrain myself to building the highest level farms at only fertile & very fertile locations.

[Rothe]

I'm finding the best approach is to only upgrade a few strategically located provinces and leave all other provinces at either first or second level (i.e. as i've found them, i never actually upgrade them) with a variety of markets, shrines and tea-houses, as appropriate to the location. These less developed provinces almost never have any troop production facilities (apart from the odd siege engineer, or occasionally to take advantage of unit bonuses). Markets are never upgraded past the first level.

I agree. Although, I always take care to utilize province bonuses for unit stats (crafts, armorer, horses, holy site). Basically these provinces are priority 1. The rest are priorized for upgrades mostly just if they have an important strategic location on the expected frontline or not.

Thus i have a small number of fully upgraded provinces each of which are capable of producing all varieties of units, at high skill levels (ideally located on armourer/weaponsmith or other bonus giving locations). These elite troops are then padded out with utterly mundane zero skill yari and bow ashigaru recruited from the more numerous underdeveloped provinces.

Ashigaru I recruit in the beginning from anywhere I can get them, but later on I end up disbanding "vanilla" ashigaru and I seem to be able to produce them with at least some bonuses to armor and perhaps even attack. I don't rush so much in the mid game, so I kind of wean out the weak units and rotate in fully upgraded ones while I still have my trade to give me funds for it - I do it even for some samurai units. My idea is to max out the unit stats I get for the upkeep I will have to pay for it. The recruitment cost is small compared to the upkeep over the whole campaign anyway. Also, I use some ashigaru in most of my army, and they have to be top notch to be of use.

For the late game, I expect to build very few new units anymore, except to keep the peace.

This lets you get massive growth in the early game (which is when it really matters) by having lots of surplus food, which you can keep going all the way through the mid game until you hit the realm divide event. At this point its probably worth sacrificing that extra food and upgrading your markets to boost your cash now that youve lost a lot of trade income.

It goes without saying that farms are upgraded everywhere as a priority, though i try to restrain myself to building the highest level farms at only fertile & very fertile locations.

I max farms everywhere, but I play a long campaign so it makes more sense. I don't see the point of not maxing out farms. For the cost side of it, I always have enough koku in mid game to upgrade everything I need, and I avoid the divide until I am happy with my provinces (15 - 16 provinces at that point). Having a solid food surplus for the end game is important, and the surplus also keeps on giving growth. I don't care if a location is fertile, since I want the food, the wealth bonus is nice, but a fixed amount is less important than the global growth the food gives me.

For me, I am not sure about losing the food surplus even just before the realm divide (or after). You will still have to take provinces that might have very little food output, but might already have large castles and/or markets. Better to be safe and have all the surplus you can without leaving you open in terms of castle defense in critical places and having your 5 metsuke. More than 5 markets will be a waste in any case.

For instance, a surplus of 20 with 15 provinces (waiting period before divide) will give you lots of koku.
My quick calc gives me around 76k koku over 50 turns, using 20% tax and +20 growth per province and considering that Metsuke can compensate for the admin cost, if I use them in the most wealthy provinces. I would like to keep the growth going even after dividde because it allows to keep my tax income going up, which means I can afford a bit of building and units.
I currently am sitting at 1570 with this strategy and my taxes are only 1k koku higher than my unit upkeep.

That 50 seasons should be a reasonable time to have between getting 15 provinces and going for the shogunate (e.g. I get 15 provinces by 1558, and then wait 12'ish years to start end game 1570). 76k koku should be more than all the cost of the farms, considering the initial wealth boost also (Which I did not even count).

[andrewt]

I've been doing that and having all non-troop building provinces eventually just have a market, ninja and temple line. I think I'll eventually drop the ninja line past 5, since the food for the castle upgrade is better than what it gives.

The one that's hard to give up is the temple line. I find arts research to be too slow without using as many of these as possible.

[Zarky]

I've been doing that and having all non-troop building provinces eventually just have a market, ninja and temple line. I think I'll eventually drop the ninja line past 5, since the food for the castle upgrade is better than what it gives.

The one that's hard to give up is the temple line. I find arts research to be too slow without using as many of these as possible.

Very true. In my Uesugi campaign I upgraded temples to the level that gives 10% bonus to chi research, amazing. With the help of some philosophical traditions I neared 200% bonus to chi research. Opting for a temple over sake den can give you some much needed research help especially later on.

[Rothe]

I've been doing that and having all non-troop building provinces eventually just have a market, ninja and temple line. I think I'll eventually drop the ninja line past 5, since the food for the castle upgrade is better than what it gives.

The one that's hard to give up is the temple line. I find arts research to be too slow without using as many of these as possible.

I never upgrade a castle to include a market in a province unless I am at less than 5 markets (I need 5 metsuke). If you capture a province with a level 1 castle + market, I think you are better off tearing down the market and putting a temple there - to upgrade to stronghold and put a temple is basically the same as using a food for the market, which is not really a good idea.

After the realm divide I notice that temples are really useful for keeping the peace. Also, having extra research never hurts and all those +5% bonuses stack up to something significant at the end.

A big surplus of food will just out grow any market or sake den. Sake dens are ok still, because you also avoid garrisoning forces in those provinces because of the happiness effect.

My +26 surplus at 20 provinces in my current game seems to be able to keep me at positive income even if I build more troops slowly.
That is already 520 growth in wealth each turn from food alone, which gives 102 koku per turn cumulative income addition. I am not worried about losing my trade anymore.