Listening to the Jesuits - practical advice on converting to Christianity

[al Roumi]

I've just started an Oda (long) campaign, cowardly choosing normal difficulty -Oda are rated hard anyway. :)

I'm keen to dabble with Christianity in this campaign. Previously, I've only played Shinto factions and done everything to suppress Chrisitanity. I feel there is something in the Oda rabble rousing/Ashigaru bonus which meshes with Christianity. I'm well aware this is historicaly dubious and a bit naf for a narrative but I'm nonetheless also intersted in having an army of monks causing revolts in my enemies provinces.

I have some qustions for those who have played a campaign with a Christian Daimyo, particularly anyone who has tried it in Central/Eastern Honshu.

1. How do you attract an offer for Nanban trade? Do I need to cross a certain threshold in (maritime?) trade before the Nanban will approach me?

2. Assuming I convert reasonably early on, what will the effect be on my neighbours, trade partners and allies who are (for the moment at least) Shinto? What have you done to manage the hit to diplomatic relations?

3. What effect do the provinces with a buddist tradition (i.e. where you can build a pilgrim's retreat) have on Christianity? Do they resist the spread of Chrsitianity? Do their bonuses apply to Christian monks recruited in the same province?

[Zarky]

1. How do you attract an offer for Nanban trade? Do I need to cross a certain threshold in (maritime?) trade before the Nanban will approach me?

2. Assuming I convert reasonably early on, what will the effect be on my neighbours, trade partners and allies who are (for the moment at least) Shinto? What have you done to manage the hit to diplomatic relations?

3. What effect do the provinces with a buddist tradition (i.e. where you can build a pilgrim's retreat) have on Christianity? Do they resist the spread of Chrsitianity? Do their bonuses apply to Christian monks recruited in the same province?

Well my only successful campaign with Christian clan was Shimazu, but some attempts at a more eastern Christian clan.

1. as far as I know, there is no way to attract nanban trade offers, as long as you have trading ports and not all military ports there should eventually be an offer. It seems western clans always get offers earlier, like Mori and Chosokabe but in my Tokugawa campaign first offers came only after 60 turns.

2. This is tricky because there definitely is a big negative hit to all relations and getting trade agreements becomes harder. Ideal situation might be where you have all your allies and trading partners before you convert. There is little you can do to really improve the relations later on unless you have a plenty of daughters to marry off.

3. Buddhist traditions become mostly ineffective for Christians. Monks do not get the experience level bonus, they get a lot of experience from inciting revolts which is really easy as Christian. You should therefore build the Pilgrim Hostel path to get the +5 morale bonus to all troops recruited there. It could be like a mediocre training center likes of which you would build to provinces with blacksmiths.
But they do not convert at all so you don't have to worry about that.

[MCM]

Frankly Oda isn't really going to be practical to be Christian. I suppose you can make it work somehow.

The problem is that when you (the daimyo) first convert to Christianity, there's going to be a huge burst in unrest, even if your provinces are mostly Christian already.

You can't convert provinces to Christianity unless you are already Christian - you can't build Chapel-line buildings or recruit Missionaries until you convert.

The Nanban Trade Port will let you convert a single province, as you can only build one. As some clans, you get access to it fairly early - the Shimazu have it from the very start of the game.

You need to convert early to get access to all the population-conversion technology, buildings, and missionaries, and then start converting provinces (preferably before you conquer them). You simply can't do that as Oda, and you have to start conquering because you'll be at war with lots of people from the start.

So when you finally have the chance to convert, you've already got a decent number of provinces that will make the conversion very tricky, and pretty much halt your expansion.

Christianity is good for otherwise weak or remote clans. Clans like Oda and Tokugawa are not that. They have to be strong from the start because there's so much competition in the central provinces.

That said, I can't wait to see how it goes for you. :)

[al Roumi]

Thanks guys, and especially for the warning MCM :)

I guess it will hang on when I actually get the offer of Nanban trade.

[Zarky]

I believe the non-clan religion penalty peaks at 7 or so unhappiness, so you'd need almost as many ashigaru units each province to counter the conversion. What I found helping as Chosokabe (though rather easy to convert to begin with) is the left-most general skill tree path which leads you to +4 conversion to clan religion among other things, not a bad idea to have your conquering general do some converting on the side.

[al Roumi]

Right, well I was approached by the Nanbans in 1555-6. I elected to built the trade centre in my Capital. The screeny below shows the state of things a few turns after the trade post has been up and running. Christianity is just below 20% and rising.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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I know I will have to go through a quite introspective period of religious transfer and my lands a larger than I'd ideally like:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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I'm currently at war with the Hojo but can contain them with one of my 5 stacks. What I'm more worried about is maintaining the bountiful trade I've established with near enough everyone, and hoping they don't immediately start to hate me for switching to christianity.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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I've noticed that being of the wrong religion gives a -10 penalty to diplo relations, i'm hoping I can ride it out.

[quadalpha]

Just -10? You won't have a problem. I did fine with -25 for the whole game (attacking your liege as a vassal is frowned upon, apparently).

[Zarky]

I have to say you seem to be doing well and 1 off topic question: How exactly does your campaign end up looking so neat? All my campaigns it's a desperate struggle for survival between AI factions well into the end of 60s. And how did the Hojo end up all the way there?

It really is a blessing and a curse, there's no 1 clear superior faction besides me, but the single stacks every faction has have plenty of samurai, superior generals and incredible experience.

[al Roumi]

Seing as conversion was going quite slow in my capital and I had empty building slots ready for chapels, i decided to speed things up by converting. From what I've read of the Jesuits in Japan, they did focus on the elites first so it's quitre conveivable that my Daimyo and his family would lead their people with their own conversions.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Oh how charming, cannons and cheaper matchlock muskets you say?

I then had small battle with the Hojo where I tried out some matchlock tactics for the first time. My tactic was to alternate matchlocks and Yai ashigaru in a long line, with ashigaru archers deployed in front of the yari units.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is how I set my units up -using the deployable defences for my archers and matchlocks.

This is the Hojo force I faced, mostly samurai -arcehrs, yari, swordsmen and 3 generals + a few ashigaru

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And my overlapping fields of fire:

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My deployment had mixed results. I won a heroic victory but lost more men that i would have done normaly -had i been using archers. I had a lot more men than the enemy, but theirs were mostly melee Samurai and most of my troops were ranged, with only 4 Samurai units.

Meanwhile, conversion of my population continues at pace.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm keeping a close eye on happiness, my millitary budget is running a little hot with so many Ashigaru garrisons but I'm now able to start reducing them as the proportion of christians in my population gets nearer 50% and religious dicontent reduces. The worst period is between 100 and 50% opposite religion to your daimyo.

[al Roumi]

I have to say you seem to be doing well and 1 off topic question: How exactly does your campaign end up looking so neat? All my campaigns it's a desperate struggle for survival between AI factions well into the end of 60s. And how did the Hojo end up all the way there?

The Hojo story is interesting. They kicked Takeda early on, moved North and west over the northern shore of central Honshu, clashing with the Hattori (who were my ally, but had not called me to battle). The Hojo then pushed all the way down to Iga, annihilating the Hattori. By this point I'd also knocked the Tokugawa and Imagawa out so was entirely encircled by the Hojo forces. It turned out the hojo were pretty stretched as the clan who start in Hida stole Etchu and Northern Shinanu from the hojo, splitting their lands in two. I then took the Hojo heartlands to the east of me (Izu, Sagami, Kai and Musashi) and then the old Hattori lands to the west (Omi and Iga).

All that is left of the (briefly) glorious Hojo state is Noto, Kaga and Echizen -and I'm happy to fight off the small/single stacks that they occasionaly send into Omi. I fear that I'd be too stretched to manage the christianisation of my lands if I sent a stack north.

Otherwise, I guess the AI is managing itself pretty well. The Mori are very active at sea but haven't gained mnore than a few provinces since the game began. Chosokabe have their Island but haven't budged off it yet.

It really is a blessing and a curse, there's no 1 clear superior faction besides me, but the single stacks every faction has have plenty of samurai, superior generals and incredible experience.

I've found the AI tends to push in a single direction usually, i.e. west to east -as the Hanma have done in my game. They often (as do I) leave weak/non-existent garrisons behind. You could try a Naval invasion to the rear of an AI faction. Draw the enemy stacks onto your fortifications, they will break against your walls (and arrows) like waves on a beach.

[antisocialmunky]

Oda, Christian, ironic.

Its interesting to watch what early guns can do. I really don't like guns at all compared to how OP Archers already are.

[nafod]

I have to say that based on my Mori campaign I don't see a reason to avoid conversion.

1. The Nanban ports and quarters produce so much more money.

2. I'm lukewarm to matchlock ashigaru, but am really loving the european caravels and cannons.

3. The diplomatic hit looks like it would hurt, but I'm having an easier go of things than with my recent Shinto-Buddhist Date and Shimazu campaigns.

I mean seriously I have 40k in the bank and make about 9k a turn w/9 provinces at ~1565. Fund five decent full stack armies 50/50 blend between ashigaru and samurai plus six full stack navies.

I don't believe the - diplo hit really changes things to a degree where a player would notice it. Additionally Christianity allows the player to employ tactics that the CAI doesn't appear to be able to counter.

[al Roumi]

I have to say that based on my Mori campaign I don't see a reason to avoid conversion.

1. The Nanban ports and quarters produce so much more money.

2. I'm lukewarm to matchlock ashigaru, but am really loving the european caravels and cannons.

Imported matchlocks are fantastic siege defenders, are useful in a defensive field battle (providing you can keep them firing and out of melee) -but the wrong tool for an attack.

The Nanban trade ships are very powerful -with a single tradeship and two bow kobayas(sp?) I routed and captured a full fleet of Sengoku Bunes, kobayas and 4 trade ships.

I hadn't expected much from canons (given comments by others here) but I was pleasantly surprised. They are reasonably accurate enough to snipe at generals but not having much ammo is a downer.

3. The diplomatic hit looks like it would hurt, but I'm having an easier go of things than with my recent Shinto-Buddhist Date and Shimazu campaigns.

I don't believe the - diplo hit really changes things to a degree where a player would notice it. Additionally Christianity allows the player to employ tactics that the CAI doesn't appear to be able to counter.

True, setting yourself up as the master of trade does a lot to make up for (perceived) religious perfidity. Once the realm divide hits, being christian and able to "flip" provinces with your monks (either as buffer rebel states or preparing the gorund for your forces to control the province), is highly valuable.

The CAI does use its agents, but I've not seen it (either as a Chrisitian or Shinto) undermine the rule of neighbours/opponents by preaching to the peasants of their provinces -or attempting to cause peasant revolts. Ninjas have mostly sabotaged my armies, occasionaly assasinated my generals & agents. Metsuke have certainly gone after my agents quite a lot, as have monks. In my experience, if the CAI isn't able to respond to religious warfare, its because its not using the monks other than in a counter agent/general way - the other agents it seems fine with, but their roles are mostly about fighting other agents and characters.