Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
Because you define what's meaningful?

Subjective morals do not equal personal morals. If objective morals did exist, they could be personal; but they did not have to be right - they could be objectively irrelevant or objectively wrong.. Subjective vs. objective is characterising morals and moral judgements as a whole.

The right and wrong of subjective morals is meaningful because it gives the sort of guidance that morals is supposed to give. Even if objective morals did exist, one would never manage to agree on how they should be practised and what to do when they seemingly contradict - meaning that the notion of right and wrong has big problems right from the start. If one cannot agree universally on what is right and wrong, then the fact that morals were objective would be nothing but a fun fact. No human could possibly know whether or not it was acting according to the right set of morals.
Nope, still not getting it.

Objective: Something which is not dependant on the perspective of the subject (me) and therefore is always "true". I shall not consider "false" statements becase they are merely the antithesis of true ones.

Subjective: Something which is so from the subjective's perspective but not universally so, and therfore not actually "true" but merely appears to be so/approximates truth.

So, my understandin of morality is the division between right and wrong, which is universally applicable in every instance and is built into the fabric of the universe, it is not objective. Ergo, what is Right or True in one instance is also Right or True in every other instance without excpetion.

What you are talking about is not morality, but subjective utility, this is basically Sophistry. The idea is that "these morals are benificial for this society, therefore they are 'good'". The problem with that model is that one can only interrogate a society on its own terms, and the question of whether the society itself is bad never comes up. This is where multiculturalism has run aground, trying to give equal weight to every cultural view and then just unravelling in a mess.

None of this is morality.

And what we have is uncertainty, so that is what we have to work with. Chosing to ignore this uncertainty may only ever be done through secular logic. Any non-secular logic depends on secular logic in this fashion - it relies on the fact that you can trust yourself and your observations. Descartes tried to save himself from this question, but his attempt fails ("I think, therefore I am" - but of course, Descartes could be a long chain of different identities highly similar. But I digress.).

Yes, it is "wild" speculations. Yet, what I talk about could be true regarldess of how "wild" people of this time would consider it. So, if one is actually to get some sense of overview on things, one must account for all possibilties. These possibilites could have a real impact on daily life, both directly and indirectly - only assessing them may tell. The indirect impact in this case, is to weaken the idea of religious logic as somehow independent of secular logic.
I recently read in the Guardian an article that argued that this universe was probably created to be ergonomic for the creation of life by people in another universe, and that this explained the habitablity of our universe. Further, it was argued that this was more likely than a divine creator because once a sentient lifeform existed in one universe it would create other habitable universes, and then others would be created...... etc.

This ignored three points.

1. That we might be the "first" universe.

2. That this still doesn't explain the existence of a first universe, even if it isn't us.

3. That this whole speculation is based on something we think we "might" be able to do.

In other words, it's about as likely, if not less so, than a Divine Creator.

Wild speculation based on that sort of "evidence" is significantly beyond the realms of all but the wackiest theology.

So, as I said, we have one universe to work with, making wild suppositions about other universes that may or may not exist, and which we will never visit, is just an exercise in intellectual vanity. It is considerably less useful in my view than the discussion we are having now.