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Thread: Most dominant infantry in Europe
Originally Posted by fomalhaut:
well according to this thread cost/benefit we should just have entire armies full of nothing but untrained adolescent males, die jugundiz :P
I'm not really saying that, just that 3 and 4 chevron Jugundiz are the best basic core infantry troop in Europe due to the versatility of the skirmisher-spearman platform, their cost, and the power that comes from all the chevrons. I'm still curious what good Lusotannan players would say because I think that Luso Ambushers and Celtiberian javelineers have some advantages due to their huge numbers, but Jugundiz have the best price-point and 4 chevrons are very hard to beat.well according to this thread cost/benefit we should just have entire armies full of nothing but untrained adolescent males, die jugundiz :P
So Jugundiz make IMO an optimal basic core building block of the army. Pure 3 or 4 chevron Jugundiz spam stacks are strong in themselves, 10 stacks of Jugundz are dirt cheap and they can conquer most any Eleutheroi city in Europe. But put say 6 Jugundz, 6 spearmen/swordsmen, 5-6 archer spearmen, an FM and a couple pikemen reserves and you have an extremely cost effective army with huge numbers that owns most cavalry and can surround and slaughter just about any infantry army. The numbers are just hard to deal with- 3,500 man (huge unit size) elite Sweboz infantry hordes based on Jugundiz are hard to beat. So if anything in Europe can deal with it I am all ears. Getai are great but they take a long time to really develop the Level 4 MICs and get the Thraikian peltasts going. Sweboz after the initial blitz all you need to conquer eleutheroi cities are cheap Jugundz and FMs. Mainly I think Romans played right with their high armor and shield ratings and good infantry cost/value might vie with the Sweboz for supreme infantry. Perhaps Lusos played right as well but they take a lot longer to max out their chevrons.
Well, I never said, the AI is not doing "correct manouvers", I said, they never do anything better than a correct manouver, I mean, they never surprised me...
And, from what I can tell, the AI didn't get better when increasing the difficulty
And, from what I can tell, the AI didn't get better when increasing the difficulty
In my Maks campaign having built the level 4 regional MIC in Singidunum, I got access to Boi swordsmen.These guys are 202 per unit, have 22 def and 13 att and cost only 300 mnai per season.Haven't used them yet but from the numbers they seem a real bargain.
They are pretty cool, but have no "celtic longswords", instead they use 0.13 lethality kind of "gladius". They are disciplined, so no easy routing ( 11 morale ), but only "trained", with not so tough formation. Their attack is only "12", iirc, but their javeline range is longer than that of Botroas ( northern guys ). Imo, it´s the discipline that makes them quite unique, because even Milnaht are imetuous, though with much better morale value. The only "problem" is, once you are in the position to hire them playing a Celtic faction, you already own half of the Europe, except Iberia and Italy, perhaps, if you take it slowly. I can´t wait to play Boii in EB2, but actually it would be quite cool to replace Casse with Boii in EB1, imho ( more action, more opportunities, more fun! ).
i just realized this in my now finished aedui campaign!
i was super disappointed to find that the Boii and Lugjowie are basically the 'end game' units. i loooove the boii swordsmen @Ksifos, not only are they versatile and dependable but they are probably the coolest looking swordsmen in the game besides Alpine (aedui skin with the cloak, so cool)
i was super disappointed to find that the Boii and Lugjowie are basically the 'end game' units. i loooove the boii swordsmen @Ksifos, not only are they versatile and dependable but they are probably the coolest looking swordsmen in the game besides Alpine (aedui skin with the cloak, so cool)
Another great bonus they have is combat bonus at woods which in EB is rare.
I wanted to mention this before but always kept forgetting:
In my Casse campaign (VH/VH) I recall of a battle where odds were in favor of Romanii something like 7 to 10.They had a really good army, with a lot of Pedite and Triarii.These units are a pain in the ...well you know.My whole army was inside a thick forest, so visibility was low.In fact the hardest thing is to move carefully as enemy units hide almost instantly.I had the feeling of a sound defeat.To my surprise the tide of battle turned in our favor as if we had a SECRET combat bonus.But all Briton units dont have any at least in the unit card, only expert at hiding which is different.I really dont know.Maybe the "combat bonus in woods" has a range and becomes visible in the unit card on a certain value?
About Boii: Their cost is 371/season but is still cheap.I currently use them as garrison but can't wait to bring them in my eastern front where AS and Ptolemaioi, while they are at war, they keep sending stack after stack against me.I can imagine them ambusing inside woods and flanking enemy phalanxes :-)
I have a neat idea of producing a pure "Barbarian" stack, consisting of the best units (like Boii, Scordisci, Thraikioi Peltastai, Thraikioi Romphaiaphoroi, etc) and bring it in Minor Asia.This would be FUN!
I wanted to mention this before but always kept forgetting:
In my Casse campaign (VH/VH) I recall of a battle where odds were in favor of Romanii something like 7 to 10.They had a really good army, with a lot of Pedite and Triarii.These units are a pain in the ...well you know.My whole army was inside a thick forest, so visibility was low.In fact the hardest thing is to move carefully as enemy units hide almost instantly.I had the feeling of a sound defeat.To my surprise the tide of battle turned in our favor as if we had a SECRET combat bonus.But all Briton units dont have any at least in the unit card, only expert at hiding which is different.I really dont know.Maybe the "combat bonus in woods" has a range and becomes visible in the unit card on a certain value?
About Boii: Their cost is 371/season but is still cheap.I currently use them as garrison but can't wait to bring them in my eastern front where AS and Ptolemaioi, while they are at war, they keep sending stack after stack against me.I can imagine them ambusing inside woods and flanking enemy phalanxes :-)
I have a neat idea of producing a pure "Barbarian" stack, consisting of the best units (like Boii, Scordisci, Thraikioi Peltastai, Thraikioi Romphaiaphoroi, etc) and bring it in Minor Asia.This would be FUN!
i love using different cultures to fight eachother, like Indians against Ethiopians or Europeans, Barbarians versus Carthaginians.
i think all barbarian soldiers have a combat bonus in woods
i think all barbarian soldiers have a combat bonus in woods
Originally Posted by Ksifos:
Maybe the "combat bonus in woods" has a range and becomes visible in the unit card on a certain value?
IIRC from my "studies" of the EDU a bonus of 1 isn't shown on the cards, only if they have 2+ bonus in woods/snow/against cavalry etc. you can see that on the unit card. But I can tell you what made the difference in your battle: Maluses aren't shown on the cards but most of the heavy infantry has these, especially the non-barbarian one. So while your troops maybe didn't had bonuses in the woods they had at least no maluses but the enemy had huge ones.Maybe the "combat bonus in woods" has a range and becomes visible in the unit card on a certain value?
Rahl - Well that would explain the outcome of the battle but... aren't bonuses, maluses and terrain calculated in the battle preview? Just curious because if true the AI odds should have been lower.
AFAIK, it´s the armour value ( which get´s approx. doubled in the calculation, iirc ) that matters most in autoresolve. And the armour of PO and Triarii goes beyond any scale compared to celtic one ( even Solduros can´t match them ).
Vollorix - About Boii, you were right their stats are 12/21.It's just that I can recruit them with one chevron of experience (hence the +1) and now I am building a blacksmith (+1 more).So overall they will start with 14/23.Not bad at all!
Just got access to Cordinau Orca (Elite Scordisci Infantry), small unit per size but their stats are superb (15Att / 30 Def).They are easily compared to top roman units.Similar unit that comes to mind, the british Rycalawre has less Att and is more defensive orientated.
Just got access to Cordinau Orca (Elite Scordisci Infantry), small unit per size but their stats are superb (15Att / 30 Def).They are easily compared to top roman units.Similar unit that comes to mind, the british Rycalawre has less Att and is more defensive orientated.
but honestly, they are ugly as all sin. they look like ancient american football players in silly trousers
Originally Posted by fomalhaut:
but honestly, they are ugly as all sin. they look like ancient american football players in silly trousers
True.But when they cut through enemies, they look so beautiful :-Pbut honestly, they are ugly as all sin. they look like ancient american football players in silly trousers
Originally Posted by Ksifos:
Rahl - Well that would explain the outcome of the battle but... aren't bonuses, maluses and terrain calculated in the battle preview? Just curious because if true the AI odds should have been lower.
Vollorix already explained the most important part. The autocalc is crap, the AI generals often have way more stars what gives them better battle odds but we all know they can't use them properly. I'm not sure if the terrain is included in the battle odds, height maybe, but just think about battles at river crossings... I'm playing a Sweboz in Bastarnolandam campaing atm and have abushed many armoured HA armies of the Sauros, mostly with battle odds of 1:2 or 3 and won easily even without any armoured units and I'm not experienced with ambushing and hate the lack of sight in the woods. The AI could have won some of them too I believe.Rahl - Well that would explain the outcome of the battle but... aren't bonuses, maluses and terrain calculated in the battle preview? Just curious because if true the AI odds should have been lower.
Originally Posted by Ksifos:
Just got access to Cordinau Orca (Elite Scordisci Infantry), small unit per size but their stats are superb (15Att / 30 Def).They are easily compared to top roman units.Similar unit that comes to mind, the british Rycalawre has less Att and is more defensive orientated.
The Cordinau Orca have low lethality (1.2 IIRC) they are worse then other celtic elites even with their 2 extra armour, I changed them in my game because they're less cost-effective then most other elites and especially then other regionals.Just got access to Cordinau Orca (Elite Scordisci Infantry), small unit per size but their stats are superb (15Att / 30 Def).They are easily compared to top roman units.Similar unit that comes to mind, the british Rycalawre has less Att and is more defensive orientated.
Cordinau Orca only have a lethality of .12 though, I found them kind of underwhelming. Maybe I used them wrong though.
As far as most dominant infantry well that's a good question. I just wrapped up a Casse campaign so I'm gonna have to go with Milnaht
Milnaht shred through anything that's not elite. Theyre not terribly expensive, they hold up against anything, very hardy so they'll eventually out last whatever they're fighting, etc. Just an all round good unit.
As far as most dominant infantry well that's a good question. I just wrapped up a Casse campaign so I'm gonna have to go with Milnaht
Milnaht shred through anything that's not elite. Theyre not terribly expensive, they hold up against anything, very hardy so they'll eventually out last whatever they're fighting, etc. Just an all round good unit.
Plus: Cardinau Orca got not even "hardy", aka good stamina attribute. And since the lethality drops with loss of stamina ( as does the morale ), they are best to hold the line, are quite missile proof ( shield and armour at best ), or block some narrow passage. In vanilla they´d be superb due to lethality = 1 and very short battles, but in EB, where fighting takes a while... well. Also, you can utilize them in autoresolving battles - playing some "underarmoured" faction, just put a couple of these units directly after you general bodyguards ;)
that Milnaht looks like Belgae Swordsmen of the true Aedui, i loooved them in my armies. Celtic units are so varied and plenty, what a great roster. Belgae are badass and don't need to be naked or on pcp to be that way (not to offend my friends the gaesatae)
Originally Posted by Rahl:
I'm not sure if the terrain is included in the battle odds, height maybe, but just think about battles at river crossings...
According to the developers the auto-calc algorithm does take terrain into account. Or are you talking about the graphic display of battle odds on the pre-battle screen and next to the map-view during battles?I'm not sure if the terrain is included in the battle odds, height maybe, but just think about battles at river crossings...
I started looking at units' details because you all speak of lethality for example.I tried searching (tbh not thoroughly) for some info about those hidden stats.So that I can understand how important is attack, lethality, morale, training etc
Let me give you one example.All spearmen/pikemen I checked have a lethality of 1, which means 1 hit=1kill.But ingame I don't get that impression.On the contrary I think both type of units are SLOW killers.Again, swordsmen seem to kill much faster.And all have considerably LOWER lethality.So I would really love to understand the whole concept a bit better, cause I dont believe lethality itself is the most important factor.
To anyone with expertise in this kind of info, I would appreciate some links or explanation on those attributes.
Let me give you one example.All spearmen/pikemen I checked have a lethality of 1, which means 1 hit=1kill.But ingame I don't get that impression.On the contrary I think both type of units are SLOW killers.Again, swordsmen seem to kill much faster.And all have considerably LOWER lethality.So I would really love to understand the whole concept a bit better, cause I dont believe lethality itself is the most important factor.
To anyone with expertise in this kind of info, I would appreciate some links or explanation on those attributes.
@Ksifos: you should read this one: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344
It will help you understand almost everything about EDU and beyond.
It will help you understand almost everything about EDU and beyond.
Originally Posted by Ludens:
According to the developers the auto-calc algorithm does take terrain into account. Or are you talking about the graphic display of battle odds on the pre-battle screen and next to the map-view during battles?
About that one on the pre-battle screen. Even the one during the battles differs from that one. I think the odds on the pre-battle screen count the troops and the general and not much more. Seeing the difference between the campaign map-terrain and the battle map it wouldn't be able to calculate that correctly.According to the developers the auto-calc algorithm does take terrain into account. Or are you talking about the graphic display of battle odds on the pre-battle screen and next to the map-view during battles?
Thanks Vollorix for the source.
Do you know what the const1 parameter in the "chance to kill" formulae represents?
Do you know what the const1 parameter in the "chance to kill" formulae represents?
Originally Posted by Ksifos:
Thanks Vollorix for the source.
Do you know what the const1 parameter in the "chance to kill" formulae represents?
I think tests were undertaken to approximate a mathematical model for the fighting that closely resembles what CA used. Variables can use things like stat values from game. You could find the constant that makes the equation best match the actual results, if that makes any sense.Thanks Vollorix for the source.
Do you know what the const1 parameter in the "chance to kill" formulae represents?
What values does this constant takes? A range would suffice :-)
Originally Posted by Ksifos:
What values does this constant takes? A range would suffice :-)
Look up both Aradan and phalanx_man. Either or both will discuss this in further detail better than I could (phalanx_man is likely to help you if you're willing to read the text).What values does this constant takes? A range would suffice :-)
Originally Posted by Rahl:
About that one on the pre-battle screen. Even the one during the battles differs from that one. I think the odds on the pre-battle screen count the troops and the general and not much more. Seeing the difference between the campaign map-terrain and the battle map it wouldn't be able to calculate that correctly.
Actually the pre-battle odds are at least supposed to evaluate tropp strength, troop quality and experience, general's ability and so they are supposed to really give an account of the odds in the battle. The "troopmeter" in the battle system only counts numbers as far as I knowAbout that one on the pre-battle screen. Even the one during the battles differs from that one. I think the odds on the pre-battle screen count the troops and the general and not much more. Seeing the difference between the campaign map-terrain and the battle map it wouldn't be able to calculate that correctly.
Originally Posted by TheLastDays:
The "troopmeter" in the battle system only counts numbers as far as I know
I'm sure it counts height and stamina too. Sometimes I fought only with the cavalry of the FMs, mostly against small rebel armies. I tired them out and took higher ground to charge them and I saw chances in the "troopmeter" doing this before I attackt them. I'm quite sure it counts troop quality too.The "troopmeter" in the battle system only counts numbers as far as I know
Yes, I have now tested it and have to say you're right, sorry for the misleading statement ;)
Just finished my Maks campaign, really enjoyed it.
A small update since my last posts.Bois infantry may look good in stats but ingame fail to impress.In fact I found them breaking quite easily.
Cordinau Orca on the other hand is an excellent unit.In a siege battle I had one of them on one wall plus a romphaiaphoroi on the other wall.Both units managed over 1200 kills against opponents such as Klerouchon Agema, Galatai Klerouchoi and Klerouchoi Phalangitai.
** In that same battle I lost almost three units of Bois who were unable to hold their position and broke very fast :-(
Also tested them in the battlefield against a Klerouchon Agema, "head to head" and managed to hold them with ease while other units encircled and finally butchered the Ptolemaic Elites.
This unit is simply superb in holding the line and with decent killing ratio.Plus due to high defense they are very good choice for autocalc battles.
A small update since my last posts.Bois infantry may look good in stats but ingame fail to impress.In fact I found them breaking quite easily.
Cordinau Orca on the other hand is an excellent unit.In a siege battle I had one of them on one wall plus a romphaiaphoroi on the other wall.Both units managed over 1200 kills against opponents such as Klerouchon Agema, Galatai Klerouchoi and Klerouchoi Phalangitai.
** In that same battle I lost almost three units of Bois who were unable to hold their position and broke very fast :-(
Also tested them in the battlefield against a Klerouchon Agema, "head to head" and managed to hold them with ease while other units encircled and finally butchered the Ptolemaic Elites.
This unit is simply superb in holding the line and with decent killing ratio.Plus due to high defense they are very good choice for autocalc battles.
Line infantry: probably marian and imperial cohorts, due to their insane recruitment area and cost/effectiveness. Thureophoroi would be second best choise cause they are good defensive infantry with good AOR, in europe greece and italy as far away as massalia. Pezoi Brettioi should also be mentioned due to the central position of italy, which allows to move them be easily moved to conflict areas (+ all factions can recruit them).
Conserning the claim that jugunthiz would be most dominant infantry: defining dominant brings conclusion that dominating infantry should be able to stand their ground against statistically superior infantry even without numbers andvantage or superior support troops, this jugunthiz can't deliver even with those starting chevrons, throw a unit of bataroas/milnacht/neitos against them and they break easily. Their high morale also comes from the great morale bonuses the sweboz generals get, so nothing too awosome on their morale either. Good supporting unit, but the real lineholder unit for the sweboz is still duguntiz.
Conserning the claim that jugunthiz would be most dominant infantry: defining dominant brings conclusion that dominating infantry should be able to stand their ground against statistically superior infantry even without numbers andvantage or superior support troops, this jugunthiz can't deliver even with those starting chevrons, throw a unit of bataroas/milnacht/neitos against them and they break easily. Their high morale also comes from the great morale bonuses the sweboz generals get, so nothing too awosome on their morale either. Good supporting unit, but the real lineholder unit for the sweboz is still duguntiz.
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