Most dominant infantry in Europe

[vollorix]

@Geticus: Because of the PE spam, and because of the disadvantage of the barbarian factions, if controlled by AI, i have altered my EDU a lot. But if you simply compare the "autocalc" results, even with the weakend Romans, they will definetly overwhelm the Sweboz controlled by AI. Even on medium campaign difficulty the Romans get insanly rich ( 100k after 10 - 15 years with almost no expansion ), and in the long turms they should be able to break any barbarian resistance, except for the Lusos, of course, with their "ap" attributes, and their mines, once they gain control of Iberia. The strategical AI is no challenge for an insane human style anyway^^

My EDU alterings so far ( BI.exe ):
- halfed the numbers of PE and Triarii, reduced their armour ( -2 ), made PE 2 turns recruitment ( i´d gladly reduce their recruitment pool to Roma only, but i´m no pro in EDB, sadly; also considering to reduce PE numbers to 20 men on normal, since AI still loves to spam them a lot... )
- took away "ap" attribute from all infantry units ( except axemen ), changed the lethality of "kopis" and "falcata" swords to 0.15 ( 0.16 for the elites ), added +1 attack to those units ( still experimenting )
- reduced spear attack value ( -4 ), "light spear" should be enough to counter, but not just slaughter cavalry
- changed stats of Celtic Axemen similar to Eastern Axemen ( low armour (2), 50>40 men unit size, lowered attack their attack -1 ), but haven´t touched Raetians or Astuaians.
- 2 HP for every "unique" unit, even with decent armour, but with no/very low shield value ( Lugians, Thratian Elites, Goidic Elites, Pictone Neitos, British Swordmasters ), higher costs/upkeep for Naked Spearmen ( also took their "command" attribute away - Celtic factions used to spam them too much for my tastings )
- reduced Roman recruitment pool to their factional units, except for cavalry of any kind, and Neitos ( so far i can see, it heavily nerfed Romans, but i have to observe their developement on "VH" campaign difficulty, they still are able to hire mercs, we´ll see )
- 0 turn recruitment for Hastati, Princeps and Triarii ( early and late ), but i´m not quite sure how well the AI can use this gift

The reason for all this was primary my disliking the ahistorical Roman army compositions; and also/therefore my disliking for destroying them way too early in the game ( by me, or the AI ): i mean, the greatest threat in Europe they have become, and i simply march through and kill them, only to prevent them from spamming Triarii + PE armies after 20 years. But i also didn´t want the Romans be destroyed by Lusos ( "ap" nerf ).

Sorry for a bit off topic, but if i´d wanted to blitz&conquer i´d need about 20 years to take the whole Europe, i guess. A prehistorical "Mongol Invasion" of a kind - i don´t like it, actually.

Btw: When playing Casse, my first move is always to take Bratosporus - after a couple of turns in the red your economy is stabile ( and i can spam Batacorii, too ).

[Tyrfingr]

Milhnats and Batacoriis for the win!

[Cute Wolf]

hmm, actually I've once go up against Jugundiz spam as Casse :D

well, not all level 3 or 4 though, the AI still loves the 0 chevroned as well, but yeah, since that was about 200 BC, quite a lot actually had 3 or 4 chevrons

to break them is easy, extremely easy actually, maybe contrary to your tactics, but I use Iasotae + Leuce Epos to counter them, a fullstack of Jugundiz (20 unit full - I use 0 turn recruit) can be taken down simply by a General (made casse General into Kulddargos infantry actually) + 4 Leuce Epos + 2 slingers, just bait them with slingers, and put concentrated cavalry charges in one flank

[Lazy O]

Bataroas / Thorakitia

[Geticus]

hmm, actually I've once go up against Jugundiz spam as Casse :D

well, not all level 3 or 4 though, the AI still loves the 0 chevroned as well, but yeah, since that was about 200 BC, quite a lot actually had 3 or 4 chevrons

to break them is easy, extremely easy actually, maybe contrary to your tactics, but I use Iasotae + Leuce Epos to counter them, a fullstack of Jugundiz (20 unit full - I use 0 turn recruit) can be taken down simply by a General (made casse General into Kulddargos infantry actually) + 4 Leuce Epos + 2 slingers, just bait them with slingers, and put concentrated cavalry charges in one flank

Yeah when I play as Gauls I massacre Sweboz hordes with slingers, leuke epos, brihentin bodyguards all day long by tiring them out in the skirmish and then simultaneous charges. In fact slingers aren't always necessary, just skirmishing with Leuke epos until the enemy are exhausted and then chainrouting down the line with 3 way charges led by the bodyguards works fine. The AI doesn't know how to skirmish, it charges with a few troops, fires a few javelin volleys, then retreats as soon as your slingers start to skirmish, leaving them open to getting shot in the back. I get 15 to 1 on up to 100 to 1 kill ratios playing as Aedui against the Sweboz all the time, but it only proves the AI shortcomings, since the AI makes too many movements and charges/retreats too often leading to total army exhaustion. Another problem the AI has is that it doesn't use skirmisher infantry right, instead it just charges and uses them as melee troops without firing javelins at all, or runs in, fires once, and then runs away. This doesn't prove anything about the true power of the Jugundiz hordes.

Looking at it abstractly, however, I think it is pretty clear that level 4 upgraded Jugundiz > level 1 or 2 leuke epos. Upgraded Jugundiz are far cheaper, have better morale, have more javelins (1,200 vs. 800 on huge unit size), equal range, and win all day in sustained melee. Any good human player also knows how to counter a light cavalry charge by alt-clicking against them to charge with spears. The AI often just stands still and lets you charge their exposed flank and rear all day leading to easy routes. All you have to do with Sweboz is not play like the AI does and do one shot charges and turn your back to the slingers etc. The way to deal with slingers is just to charge them in the face and either shoot them with complete javelin volleys or just melee them. Either way the Sweboz have more chevrons and better morale.

[Cute Wolf]

but NOTHING beat massive cavalry charges in da flank
well, even VH battle difficulty won't help much :P

against human player in MP, it was the timing of the charge and cavalry angle (how to manipulate your opponents to doing something wrong)

[Geticus]

but NOTHING beat massive cavalry charges in da flank
well, even VH battle difficulty won't help much :P

against human player in MP, it was the timing of the charge and cavalry angle (how to manipulate your opponents to doing something wrong)

4 chevron spearmen beat massive cavalry charges all day long. Just be sure to charge the cavalry head on, don't be like the AI and stand with your flank exposed. I used to watch a lot of the MP replays and most people didn't know how to deal with cataphracts, but some did and they would chase the cataphracts down or drive them off even with garbage troops like Numidian skirmishers. Sweboz Jugundiz work the same way. Once cavalry are a little tired, how can they survive a long term melee against spearmen? They can't, they either die or run away which leads to exhaustion.

The thing about MP is that morale is much lower than it tends to be in SP. In SP with a decent general helping to bolster their already very high morale (+4 chevrons I don't know what it does but I know they fight to nearly the last man) 4 chevron Jugundiz can countercharge cataphracts and hold position. Three hetairoi on the flank just send 3 Jugundiz to shoot at them, if the hetairoi charge then countercharge with spears and micromanage the initial impact. In SP Sweboz generals always have well supplied (+1 morale), always give them an armorer (+1), and they should have some other stuff like brave (+2), fearless (+1), or Druhtinaz, Xorjonoz or whatever so armies perform much differently in SP. Ever fight a Sweboz horde commanded by the Sweboz king in SP? Their troops are much harder to break because the king is there and he is usually 10 star. If you don't kill the king, almost everyone fights to the last man right? Well in SP if you play Sweboz the same thing happens, protect your general, don't suicide him or use him in the front line, and all the Jugundiz will fight almost to the last man. Hetairoi charges are no problem, I'd send three silver chevron Jugundiz against 3 charging Hetairoi anyday, the Jugundiz will lose 100 men to the initial charge without breaking because of super high morale, and then win out in the protracted melee.

The thing about SP with super high morale is that fear, cavalry charges and other things that make troops route in MP are much less effective and battle becomes much more of an all out slugfest. Basically I'm saying that Sweboz have the highest morale of all because of the 4 chevron spam and the forager trait, so their levies are super firm and their javelins hit real hard because of all the chevrons.

[Lazy O]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

[Geticus]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

Sweboz pikemen (15 morale base) with +3 chevron, pike defensive bonus vs. cavalry, and a good general's morale bonus might.

Plus what is the cost of 5 cataphracts? Twenty 4 chevron Jugundiz cost less upkeep than 4 cataphracts, so in terms of infantry dominance, I am looking at overall cost effectiveness and ease of recruitment. Cataphracts are awesome in their way, but by 250 the Sweboz can start spamming full stacks based on huge numbers of silver chevron skirmishers. What in Europe can really withstand that? Depending on the opposition the rest of the army can vary, clubmen for AP vs. Romans, more archers vs. nomadic factions, but the Jugundiz are the primary unit, super cheap, plentiful, dominate any European cavalry and lethal on the flank. I'm just proposing that the Jugundiz skirmisher with temple of Tyr bonuses is the most overpowering infantry in Europe if used right, due above all to cost effectiveness. Against almost any army composition type I believe the 4 chevron Jugundiz will perform well, they almost always get positive kill/loss ratios. That is mainly what I look for in SP. The good infantry always cause more damage than they take. When I play Aedui almost nothing gets the better of my Northern Gallic Swordsmen after post-battle healing. Playing Casse no one ever outfights the Belgae Swordsmen. And everyone knows how lethal Thraikian peltasts are, especially with +2 or +3 chevrons. But strangely, Sweboz Jugundiz, ugly and inglorious as they are, are in that same group. Germanic spearmen are good too, but when I use the skirmishers right they are equal or sometimes even better due to all the havoc they wreak with their javelins. Almost no one in SP ever gets the better of the Sweboz youth. Their endurance is great, they almost always win in the skirmishing, they overpower all European cavalry, and then do nicely on the flanks when it comes to final battle in line. And it often doesn't go that far, many enemy armies can be routed with exquisite kill ratios just by proper skirmishing from the Jugundiz supported by archery showers.
So while cataphracts in a wedge should be able do dice up most anything, maybe even my elite Sweboz pikemen, in the macro is there anything more effective and formideable overall than Sweboz hordes based on 4 chevron Sweboz youth? Out of the six factions that I play extensively (Aedui, Arverni, Casse, Sweboz, Getai, KH) I don't think that any of them matches up well to the Sweboz youth hordes. As long as the Sweboz don't waste any money at all on cavalry they can build multiple full stacks with very high numbers all with 3/4 chevrons (4,000 on huge unit size). Maybe Makedon with its insane mining and trade economy can field armies that can compete, but I have my doubts because 4 chevron Jugundiz overpower European cavalry, including hetairoi, so easily. The main thing I see that *might* be able to match up well in the long term against Sweboz skirmisher-based hordes is Romans with Polybian principes spam and Lusotannan 3 chevron armies. But jugundiz vs. Luso ambushers, the jugundiz are cheaper man for man and at 4 chevrons have the higher morale so if anything I think the Sweboz have the edge.

Consider the stats of a 4 chevron Jugundiz (huge unit size)
200 units/188 upkeep
18 spear, 0.13 lethality
9 javelin, 1 lethality, 6 ammo, 55 range
19 defense (2 armor/3 shield/14 skill)
Morale excellent+ (4 chevrons)
very good stamina
fast moving
can hide in long grass

This is an extremely versatily, lethal, low cost unit. Can anything in Europe really hold up to these guys wave after wave?

[Cute Wolf]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

soo true

even non catass cavalry, as long as they have good charge, infantries won't survive a charge done by wedge formations ploughing their line...

well, unless 2HP Gaesatae if they aren't properly softened

Default EB doesn't have the wedge formation, so yeah.

umm, 1 cav in the front, followed by 2 in reasonably long column formation also works, even when not as effective