Most dominant infantry in Europe

[Geticus]

What is the most dominant infantry in Europe? By that I mean, not what infantry wins cohort vs. cohort the most, its pretty much the gaesatae or Chaonian Agema/Silvershields for the most elite single cohort. But I am curious what do people think is the most powerful single infantry unit type in the macro scale for conquering all Europe and defending a dominion. Cost effectiveness vs. eliteness, recruitment area, ease of recruitment, everything has to be taken into account.

Myself I play mostly Eurobarbs, mainly Aedui, Arverni, Casse, Sweboz, and Getai, as well as KH. Out of all these I think there are a few units that stand out as the dominant, most effective infantry for these factions:

Aedui/Arverni- northern Gallic swordsmen, celtic slinger
Casse- Belgae Swordsmen, celtic slinger
Sweboz- Jugunthiz skirmisher, medjininkas archer-spearmen
Getai- Thraikian peltast, Dacian skirmisher
KH- Cretan archer, hoplitai haploi

Out of all these units, I am tending to think that the one that, played right, is the most overpowering, is the German Jugunthiz skirmisher. The reason for this is that they only require a level one MIC, which is already present in most cities when you conquer them. And they can be recruited in large numbers with +2 chevrons easily, and ultimately with 4 chevrons which makes them extremely lethal and nearly unbreakable. And they are very cheap. With fast moving, and very good stamina, they are excellent skirmishers and good at tiring out the enemy lines and forcing the enemy to charge at a run. Enemy infantry cannot run them down, and enemy cavalry get crushed by their melee spears. In this they excel Dacian skirmishers, another of my favorites, since the Jugunthiz skirmisher is cheaper and more effective against cavalry, as well as faster moving. Jugunthiz javelin volleys can kill just about anything on a flank/rear attack. Finally with the increased chevrons they can hold their ground in melee and dish out decent damage. In city defenses their numbers and javelins are lethal from high ground and tend to knock the enemy down to size to where their high morale can win out in the protracted melee. So basically when I look at the macro level, all the factions have their advantages. The Casse have a great economy, the Aedui/Arverni have high quality heavily armored troops in the late game and decent city building, the Getai have versatility and the Thraikian peltasts in the later game. But having played all factions extensively, when I play Sweboz I tend to think that from the very beginning of the game, once the Sweboz capitol grows and can spam out level 2/level 3 Jugunthiz, and then the other cities kick in and can make skirmishers at level 4, it makes for very cheap, versatile, highly effective armies. Once you have 4 or 5 cities that can levy the Jugunthiz with 3 or 4 chevrons, you can spam several armies, they don't even need a general, they don't break much and can pretty well lay Europe to waste.

[fomalhaut]

In terms of just 'playing the game' then yeah the Jugunds are probably the most cost effective in that regard, BUT! it's hard for me to truly have an army constituting of so many kids (relatively speaking). I could only use them as auxilaries or last ditch defense not as the foundation to my empire.

but for me the Jewish Spearmen and Persian Archer/Spearmen are the best. Jewish Spearmen can be recruited by any army with a low level regional barracks, and they truly do make great account of themselves as warriors. 1v1 they aren't as effective as many of the Hellenes in the area, but the Jewish spearmen come in units of 200 rather than 120 or 160 so their numbers make up.

Same goes for the Persian Archer/Spearmen. They have great range, 25 arrows, and are good enough warriors that they greatly help the Jewish spearmen by flanking after their arrows have greatly thinned out the ranks.

[vollorix]

Hm, i´d go with Batacori all the way. They are not that cost effective as Jugundiz, of course, but they are instantly available to any Celtic faction that conqueres Bratosporos/Bagacos, got superior range + 3 javelines, large shields, good morale, and, at least on BI.exe they can make shield wall - a priceless feature if you are outnumbered, or have to fight in towns! Once, i´ve routed 1k German army with only 2 units of Batacori ( on guard mod, without shield wall, since i was playing on RTW.exe back than ) while defending Bagacos. Paired with a couple of Milnaht, and some missile support, Belgian troops rule the Celtic world, the Germans, and can stand their ground against more civilized factions as well. Right now i´ve started a VH/M Casse game and i´m enjoying it a lot due to those troops.
On the other hand, Dacians are the most versatile infantry base barbarian faction, imo. Sure, if you play the Germans and abuse Jugundiz spam a lot, you can win pretty much against any army, especially "barbarian" one ( though, i´d like to see how you are going to defeat all elite phalangitai helenistic army with them :), but this is also valid for HA factions, and Dacians are one, so... if i´d spam Scythian/Dacian HA´s i could even defeat those elites with ease. Another interesting unit would be Dacian Elite Archer - good range, high lethality swords, acceptable armour value ( not against missiles, though ).
All in all, i do not like spamming only one unit in game - it´s the versatility i really like, and playing Sweboz i actually prefer Dugundiz spearmen.

[Ca Putt]

imo it depends on how important you value the aforementioned points. when not regarding reforms probably marian legionaries cut off best eg.

when considering the AoR I would suggest the simple hoplite as it can be trained in many (somewhat scattered) provinces along the mediterranean coast. that and I always have a bad feeling when calling the hoplitai Haploi dominant, brutally effective - yes, dirt cheap - yes, dominating the world - not quite.
that is offcource when planning to conquer all of europe not just the VCs, tho for Celts and Sweboz their own units are faster to come by, as they are comeing from the north towards the coast ;).

[Geticus]

As far as dominance, when I played EB more recently I have been playing games with the 3 Celtic factions, the Sweboz, and Getai, and for me I always start comparing the situation around 255 or 250 BCE. I always play VH campaign, Hard battle difficulty and the Romans usually start levying decent numbers of pedites extraordinarii and Triarii around 260 or so. On autocalc the computer gives ludicrous advantages to high armor units and as a result the Romans tend to steamroll the Celtic cities and push into Massilia, and then spam Gaul itself. So the way I play with Aedui and Arverni, I generally blitz Rome to prevent endless battles against the elites. Seriously- one unit of silver chevron Pedites Extraordinarii will devour an entire Celtic army in autocalc with ease, it is insane.
So by 257 to 255 with a Gallic faction I usually sack Rome, which is worth around 50,000 mnai, and I start to have a pretty good economy. At this point the best forces the Gauls have for them, are IMO Northern Gallic Swordsmen levied from the capitols of Gaul. With a level 4 temple of Teutatis they get +2 chevrons, and that is the best thing I got when playing Gauls, until Time of Soldiers and the advent of Neitos. In comparison, in my experience the Casse can unify Britain and Ireland around 259-257 if I play well, and clear the seas of pirates and invade mainland Europe by sometime around 253 to 250. The best units the Casse can muster, the ones that do the dirty work, survive battles, and keep gaining experience, for me are the Milnaht from the Casse capitol, which levy at +1 chevron. Now about this time, playing as Sweboz, if I really focus on industrializing the capitol (Swebotraust), I can have +3 chevrons (field of games and level 3 temple of Tyr), weaponsmith, and level 3 MIC by the mid 250s. And by this time the Sweboz should have at least one good governor so that population growth at the capitol can support spamming of troops.
So by this time the Gauls or Romans should have resolved the war, the victor is becoming rich, and either the Romans should be pushing into Gaul, or the Gauls should have sacked Rome and have large numbers of 1 or 2 chevron Bataroas. The Casse by around 252 can spam full stacks with large numbers of +1 chevron Belgae Swordsmen and Belgae Spearmen from the Belgae cities if they invade the mainland. In comparison the Germans can spam level 3 and soon level 4 troops, and if they are frugal and use mostly tier one levies, they can have pretty huge numbers. Of all these army composition types, I think the Jugunthiz skirmisher spam is the most powerful, due to their extremely high morale, lethal javelins, and versatility. It seems to me that the Casse with their strong economy, superior governors and city building are the natural spoilers of the northern European coastal area. Whether Romans or Gauls win out in the Gallo-Roman theater of war, the Casse played right should be nearly unstoppable in the English channel area, the Belgae troops are reliable enough and the Casse economy just is too strong. But regardless of what I accomplish when playing as the Celtic factions, by around 255 or so I always have that thought, that by now the Sweboz, if played properly , should be spamming Level 4 levies? What can hold up to a multiple army invasion of Sweboz hordes based around Level 4 Jugundiz spam?

[moonburn]

geticus only way for the casse to clear the sea of pirates is by conquering armorica and their shipyards

[vollorix]

@Geticus: Because of the PE spam, and because of the disadvantage of the barbarian factions, if controlled by AI, i have altered my EDU a lot. But if you simply compare the "autocalc" results, even with the weakend Romans, they will definetly overwhelm the Sweboz controlled by AI. Even on medium campaign difficulty the Romans get insanly rich ( 100k after 10 - 15 years with almost no expansion ), and in the long turms they should be able to break any barbarian resistance, except for the Lusos, of course, with their "ap" attributes, and their mines, once they gain control of Iberia. The strategical AI is no challenge for an insane human style anyway^^

My EDU alterings so far ( BI.exe ):
- halfed the numbers of PE and Triarii, reduced their armour ( -2 ), made PE 2 turns recruitment ( i´d gladly reduce their recruitment pool to Roma only, but i´m no pro in EDB, sadly; also considering to reduce PE numbers to 20 men on normal, since AI still loves to spam them a lot... )
- took away "ap" attribute from all infantry units ( except axemen ), changed the lethality of "kopis" and "falcata" swords to 0.15 ( 0.16 for the elites ), added +1 attack to those units ( still experimenting )
- reduced spear attack value ( -4 ), "light spear" should be enough to counter, but not just slaughter cavalry
- changed stats of Celtic Axemen similar to Eastern Axemen ( low armour (2), 50>40 men unit size, lowered attack their attack -1 ), but haven´t touched Raetians or Astuaians.
- 2 HP for every "unique" unit, even with decent armour, but with no/very low shield value ( Lugians, Thratian Elites, Goidic Elites, Pictone Neitos, British Swordmasters ), higher costs/upkeep for Naked Spearmen ( also took their "command" attribute away - Celtic factions used to spam them too much for my tastings )
- reduced Roman recruitment pool to their factional units, except for cavalry of any kind, and Neitos ( so far i can see, it heavily nerfed Romans, but i have to observe their developement on "VH" campaign difficulty, they still are able to hire mercs, we´ll see )
- 0 turn recruitment for Hastati, Princeps and Triarii ( early and late ), but i´m not quite sure how well the AI can use this gift

The reason for all this was primary my disliking the ahistorical Roman army compositions; and also/therefore my disliking for destroying them way too early in the game ( by me, or the AI ): i mean, the greatest threat in Europe they have become, and i simply march through and kill them, only to prevent them from spamming Triarii + PE armies after 20 years. But i also didn´t want the Romans be destroyed by Lusos ( "ap" nerf ).

Sorry for a bit off topic, but if i´d wanted to blitz&conquer i´d need about 20 years to take the whole Europe, i guess. A prehistorical "Mongol Invasion" of a kind - i don´t like it, actually.

Btw: When playing Casse, my first move is always to take Bratosporus - after a couple of turns in the red your economy is stabile ( and i can spam Batacorii, too ).

[Tyrfingr]

Milhnats and Batacoriis for the win!

[Cute Wolf]

hmm, actually I've once go up against Jugundiz spam as Casse :D

well, not all level 3 or 4 though, the AI still loves the 0 chevroned as well, but yeah, since that was about 200 BC, quite a lot actually had 3 or 4 chevrons

to break them is easy, extremely easy actually, maybe contrary to your tactics, but I use Iasotae + Leuce Epos to counter them, a fullstack of Jugundiz (20 unit full - I use 0 turn recruit) can be taken down simply by a General (made casse General into Kulddargos infantry actually) + 4 Leuce Epos + 2 slingers, just bait them with slingers, and put concentrated cavalry charges in one flank

[Lazy O]

Bataroas / Thorakitia

[Geticus]

hmm, actually I've once go up against Jugundiz spam as Casse :D

well, not all level 3 or 4 though, the AI still loves the 0 chevroned as well, but yeah, since that was about 200 BC, quite a lot actually had 3 or 4 chevrons

to break them is easy, extremely easy actually, maybe contrary to your tactics, but I use Iasotae + Leuce Epos to counter them, a fullstack of Jugundiz (20 unit full - I use 0 turn recruit) can be taken down simply by a General (made casse General into Kulddargos infantry actually) + 4 Leuce Epos + 2 slingers, just bait them with slingers, and put concentrated cavalry charges in one flank

Yeah when I play as Gauls I massacre Sweboz hordes with slingers, leuke epos, brihentin bodyguards all day long by tiring them out in the skirmish and then simultaneous charges. In fact slingers aren't always necessary, just skirmishing with Leuke epos until the enemy are exhausted and then chainrouting down the line with 3 way charges led by the bodyguards works fine. The AI doesn't know how to skirmish, it charges with a few troops, fires a few javelin volleys, then retreats as soon as your slingers start to skirmish, leaving them open to getting shot in the back. I get 15 to 1 on up to 100 to 1 kill ratios playing as Aedui against the Sweboz all the time, but it only proves the AI shortcomings, since the AI makes too many movements and charges/retreats too often leading to total army exhaustion. Another problem the AI has is that it doesn't use skirmisher infantry right, instead it just charges and uses them as melee troops without firing javelins at all, or runs in, fires once, and then runs away. This doesn't prove anything about the true power of the Jugundiz hordes.

Looking at it abstractly, however, I think it is pretty clear that level 4 upgraded Jugundiz > level 1 or 2 leuke epos. Upgraded Jugundiz are far cheaper, have better morale, have more javelins (1,200 vs. 800 on huge unit size), equal range, and win all day in sustained melee. Any good human player also knows how to counter a light cavalry charge by alt-clicking against them to charge with spears. The AI often just stands still and lets you charge their exposed flank and rear all day leading to easy routes. All you have to do with Sweboz is not play like the AI does and do one shot charges and turn your back to the slingers etc. The way to deal with slingers is just to charge them in the face and either shoot them with complete javelin volleys or just melee them. Either way the Sweboz have more chevrons and better morale.

[Cute Wolf]

but NOTHING beat massive cavalry charges in da flank
well, even VH battle difficulty won't help much :P

against human player in MP, it was the timing of the charge and cavalry angle (how to manipulate your opponents to doing something wrong)

[Geticus]

but NOTHING beat massive cavalry charges in da flank
well, even VH battle difficulty won't help much :P

against human player in MP, it was the timing of the charge and cavalry angle (how to manipulate your opponents to doing something wrong)

4 chevron spearmen beat massive cavalry charges all day long. Just be sure to charge the cavalry head on, don't be like the AI and stand with your flank exposed. I used to watch a lot of the MP replays and most people didn't know how to deal with cataphracts, but some did and they would chase the cataphracts down or drive them off even with garbage troops like Numidian skirmishers. Sweboz Jugundiz work the same way. Once cavalry are a little tired, how can they survive a long term melee against spearmen? They can't, they either die or run away which leads to exhaustion.

The thing about MP is that morale is much lower than it tends to be in SP. In SP with a decent general helping to bolster their already very high morale (+4 chevrons I don't know what it does but I know they fight to nearly the last man) 4 chevron Jugundiz can countercharge cataphracts and hold position. Three hetairoi on the flank just send 3 Jugundiz to shoot at them, if the hetairoi charge then countercharge with spears and micromanage the initial impact. In SP Sweboz generals always have well supplied (+1 morale), always give them an armorer (+1), and they should have some other stuff like brave (+2), fearless (+1), or Druhtinaz, Xorjonoz or whatever so armies perform much differently in SP. Ever fight a Sweboz horde commanded by the Sweboz king in SP? Their troops are much harder to break because the king is there and he is usually 10 star. If you don't kill the king, almost everyone fights to the last man right? Well in SP if you play Sweboz the same thing happens, protect your general, don't suicide him or use him in the front line, and all the Jugundiz will fight almost to the last man. Hetairoi charges are no problem, I'd send three silver chevron Jugundiz against 3 charging Hetairoi anyday, the Jugundiz will lose 100 men to the initial charge without breaking because of super high morale, and then win out in the protracted melee.

The thing about SP with super high morale is that fear, cavalry charges and other things that make troops route in MP are much less effective and battle becomes much more of an all out slugfest. Basically I'm saying that Sweboz have the highest morale of all because of the 4 chevron spam and the forager trait, so their levies are super firm and their javelins hit real hard because of all the chevrons.

[Lazy O]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

[Geticus]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

Sweboz pikemen (15 morale base) with +3 chevron, pike defensive bonus vs. cavalry, and a good general's morale bonus might.

Plus what is the cost of 5 cataphracts? Twenty 4 chevron Jugundiz cost less upkeep than 4 cataphracts, so in terms of infantry dominance, I am looking at overall cost effectiveness and ease of recruitment. Cataphracts are awesome in their way, but by 250 the Sweboz can start spamming full stacks based on huge numbers of silver chevron skirmishers. What in Europe can really withstand that? Depending on the opposition the rest of the army can vary, clubmen for AP vs. Romans, more archers vs. nomadic factions, but the Jugundiz are the primary unit, super cheap, plentiful, dominate any European cavalry and lethal on the flank. I'm just proposing that the Jugundiz skirmisher with temple of Tyr bonuses is the most overpowering infantry in Europe if used right, due above all to cost effectiveness. Against almost any army composition type I believe the 4 chevron Jugundiz will perform well, they almost always get positive kill/loss ratios. That is mainly what I look for in SP. The good infantry always cause more damage than they take. When I play Aedui almost nothing gets the better of my Northern Gallic Swordsmen after post-battle healing. Playing Casse no one ever outfights the Belgae Swordsmen. And everyone knows how lethal Thraikian peltasts are, especially with +2 or +3 chevrons. But strangely, Sweboz Jugundiz, ugly and inglorious as they are, are in that same group. Germanic spearmen are good too, but when I use the skirmishers right they are equal or sometimes even better due to all the havoc they wreak with their javelins. Almost no one in SP ever gets the better of the Sweboz youth. Their endurance is great, they almost always win in the skirmishing, they overpower all European cavalry, and then do nicely on the flanks when it comes to final battle in line. And it often doesn't go that far, many enemy armies can be routed with exquisite kill ratios just by proper skirmishing from the Jugundiz supported by archery showers.
So while cataphracts in a wedge should be able do dice up most anything, maybe even my elite Sweboz pikemen, in the macro is there anything more effective and formideable overall than Sweboz hordes based on 4 chevron Sweboz youth? Out of the six factions that I play extensively (Aedui, Arverni, Casse, Sweboz, Getai, KH) I don't think that any of them matches up well to the Sweboz youth hordes. As long as the Sweboz don't waste any money at all on cavalry they can build multiple full stacks with very high numbers all with 3/4 chevrons (4,000 on huge unit size). Maybe Makedon with its insane mining and trade economy can field armies that can compete, but I have my doubts because 4 chevron Jugundiz overpower European cavalry, including hetairoi, so easily. The main thing I see that *might* be able to match up well in the long term against Sweboz skirmisher-based hordes is Romans with Polybian principes spam and Lusotannan 3 chevron armies. But jugundiz vs. Luso ambushers, the jugundiz are cheaper man for man and at 4 chevrons have the higher morale so if anything I think the Sweboz have the edge.

Consider the stats of a 4 chevron Jugundiz (huge unit size)
200 units/188 upkeep
18 spear, 0.13 lethality
9 javelin, 1 lethality, 6 ammo, 55 range
19 defense (2 armor/3 shield/14 skill)
Morale excellent+ (4 chevrons)
very good stamina
fast moving
can hide in long grass

This is an extremely versatily, lethal, low cost unit. Can anything in Europe really hold up to these guys wave after wave?

[Lazy O]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

To elaborate on it; basically, one unit has to draw attention of the enemy army, which is not that hard to do,
when all the infantry is coming at you, use the catas in the flank like:

Attack the unit at the end of the line

!||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| <---------------------------------------Cataphracts

The cavalry will keep charging till it reaches the unit that was targeted. This will basically destroy anything and EVERYTHING in its path. Of course no human player is stupid enough to ignore those 5 catas but the AI is.

[fomalhaut]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

or knowing EB they might not decide to couch their spears if the enemy is in loose formation D:

[Lazy O]

AS I said before, unit does not stop charging till it reaches its destination NO MATTER WHAT

[fomalhaut]

too quick of an edit my friend

[Geticus]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

To elaborate on it; basically, one unit has to draw attention of the enemy army, which is not that hard to do,
when all the infantry is coming at you, use the catas in the flank like:

Attack the unit at the end of the line

!||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| <---------------------------------------Cataphracts

The cavalry will keep charging till it reaches the unit that was targeted. This will basically destroy anything and EVERYTHING in its path. Of course no human player is stupid enough to ignore those 5 catas but the AI is.

That is cool but your last sentence is the key, I'm thinking in the absolute sense which faction in Europe has the most dominant infantry unit. Played intelligently 4 chevron skirmisher-spearmen are the best buy in Europe. That's all I'm proposing and it gives the Sweboz a major macro advantage.

[Lazy O]

The 5 cataphracts was just in response to the post above mine. For all purposes of not having to play like ETW, I maintain Bataroas and Thorakitai as the most effective :)

[The_Blacksmith]

Cataphracts is quite good, but war is not a matter of weapons as much as money... idd say the The Celtic Naked spearmen are good when they are hiding... otherwise soft targets, celtic archers and slingers are really really good and my favourite the Bataroas!

i dont play as the Getai or the Swebi alot... allthough if i play ass getai i mostly use HA's and skirmishers

[fomalhaut]

my getai armies are almost completely Thracians and Illyrians, with the dacian phalanx as the line! its quite nice

[vollorix]

There is no unit as cost effective and deadly efficient as drapanai, once you just want to slaughter enemy heavy infantry. I´ve never found a use for any other "rhompa" unit playing as Getai - why should i, if i can even charge head on in any greek phalanx and crush them with those carzy half naked dudes? ^^

[fomalhaut]

drapanai must be baby sat! their complete lack of armor keeps them so vulnerable in some situations as to make them useless. while Thracian Elite stood at the front of every line i had and laughed at the javelins and arrows, then chopped everyones arms off. Elite Thracian's were the very first unit to become gold chevron through combat alone (besides FM's who have infinite soldiers and for me do looooots of combat)

[athanaric]

geticus only way for the casse to clear the sea of pirates is by conquering armorica and their shipyards

Not true. Casse can build large warships at Ictis and Ivernis. Aremorica only holds special ships for Aedui and Arverni.

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

Default EB doesn't have the wedge formation, so yeah.


Also, every Swêboz unit has some anti-cavalry capability, which means you have to be extra careful against them. Pikemen eat cavalry in melee, and Sloxonez beat cataphracts for cost. In fact, you can kill catas pretty quickly by ambushing them with large size AP infantry units (axemen or clubmen). This even works with Eastern axemen, who're weaker in melee than Suebi AP specialists. The way to beat Suebi is using missiles and avoiding forested areas. They're the one faction that is most dangerous vs cavalry when it comes to melee - save the nuclear Getai perhaps.

Also, Elite Thracians shouldn't be exposed to pila (small shield + small unit size vs AP javelin volley = fail). In fact, it's a very bad idea to place any kind of falxmen in the frontline. They're purely offensive units. Good for counter-charging armoured cavalry though when the cavalry has engaged your spearmen.

[Cute Wolf]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

soo true

even non catass cavalry, as long as they have good charge, infantries won't survive a charge done by wedge formations ploughing their line...

well, unless 2HP Gaesatae if they aren't properly softened

Default EB doesn't have the wedge formation, so yeah.

umm, 1 cav in the front, followed by 2 in reasonably long column formation also works, even when not as effective

[Poulp']

I'd split the most dominant infantry in Europe into two categories: war-winning and battle-winning.

War-winnning: the cheapest infantry available to every factions; Akonkistai, Rorarii, etc... They are here to keep my back safe when the main force is on campaign.
It sounds obvious, but these guys deserve praise. There's an expression in french; "Rendons à César ce qui reviens à César", if there's an equivalant in english, I'd be glad to learn it.

Battle-winning Infantry.

- Rorarii - Cheap, numerous and 240 javelins per volley can't be wrong. Plus, they have a special power: We've got reserves. Your precious Rorarii got badly mauled? No problem, there's more of them where they came from, just send a few more units to the front. IMO, they are as much an exploit as a spam of Iaosatae.
In my games, they're one of the few units you'll find both in garnison duty and battle.
- Camillian Hastatii - Come at a discount price. Pedites may steal the show, but these guys bear the brunt of the opposition.

With the proper buildings, Epiros can field those two units at +2 exp from half the Italian peninsula, not bad for regionals.
Polybian Principes don't belong in here in my book; by the time you have access to them, they are just here to consolidate your domination. Icing on the cake if you will.

- Caetarti - Speed, stamina, AP at range and melee. They are the reason why you don't venture in a Lusotani-dominated Iberia without preparation (a good foothold, experienced or massed missile infantry, redondant units...)

- Iaosatae - already discussed to death.

- Peltastai - Flexible, reliable, and a good AoR near the Mediterranean. I send them to the meat grinder knowing I can always retrain them somewhere near. Jack of all trades, master of none, you'll find a lot of faster units, hitting harder or more enduring, but few who can do everything as well as peltastai.

- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins. I tend to use them in a different, more conservative way compared to ordinary peltastai; usually shunning archers and cavalry and rushing into gaps or breaches.

[antisocialmunky]

- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins. I tend to use them in a different, more conservative way compared to ordinary peltastai; usually shunning archers and cavalry and rushing into gaps or breaches.

These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

[The Celtic Viking]

There's an expression in french; "Rendons à César ce qui reviens à César", if there's an equivalant in english, I'd be glad to learn it.

Yes, there is: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s". It's from the Bible.