EB - Questions and first thoughts

[Ksifos]

Hello all.

I am a veteran vanilla VH/VH RTW/BI player and since I am an ancient era fan I decided to give EB a go for the challenge.I chose Koinon Hellinon, Med/Med to get the grasp of the game.
At first I thouht it should be hard because Macedonia had a bunch of army stacks and even lost Athens.But later on when I built my economy it was very easy.I am now going to try on VH/H as most suggest.

Overall my first impression is WTF! I can not believe the community has built such a nice, historically detailed and challenging mod.My
respect to the creators.

I have a question.While I patched with 1.2 in EB folder (when asked in the installation prompt) I have version 1.1 at the bottom left and comparing the units to those advertised on the main site of EB they are not the same? Probably I have not patched to 1.2 but why?

Also in Sparta I can not build a government type.Is that normal or a bug?

Thanks.

[The Celtic Viking]

Hello and welcome to the org!

The answer to your first question is that you should install 1.2 into your Rome - Total War folder (the same place you installed 1.1), and not the EB folder. I can't answer the second question about Sparta, though.

[Ksifos]

Hello Celtic Viking.

You were right about patching, now I am on 1.2
What is strange, I loaded my 1.1 save and started normally.Still no new units are available as shown in this page.

Maybe I have to start a new game which I plan to do.

Thanks for replying.

[fomalhaut]

what units are you missing?
it could be a few things you are missing;
You don't have the correct regional or factional barracks built.

The 'factional' units like the Distinguished Hoplites and Rhodian Slingers are mostly going to be recrutable in Sparta (for Spartans), Rhodes (Slingers), Corinth and Athens, etc.
This isn't RTW where you can recruit Praetorian Guards from Rhodos and England, but must recruit from the native populace and their own fighting styles. So the farther you leave from Hellas, the more locals you will have to rely on.

If you are looking for the Macedonian style phalanx, that is dependent on a reform though im not sure which.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Hello Celtic Viking.

You were right about patching, now I am on 1.2
What is strange, I loaded my 1.1 save and started normally.Still no new units are available as shown in this page.

Maybe I have to start a new game which I plan to do.

Thanks for replying.

Yes, save games from 1.1 are not compatible with 1.2 - so starting new campaign is essential.

[vollorix]

Macedon style phalanx ( aka phalangitai ) are available for Koinon Helenion after the March of Time "reform" happens ( the vanilla "Marian Reform" when Romans have to build a huge city in Italy, not Roma, though ).

[Ksifos]

Well I started a new v1.2, VH/H campaign.

I quickly grabbed Creta and Korinthos.Currently I am besieging Chalkis.Obviously Macedonians are pissed off and are targetting Athens.
In contrast with my 'easy' game their navy prevailed and I am on the run in the sea.This is going to be fun :-)

Now I am in the minus so cant build anything, but my question was about government building type in Sparta, because in my v1.1 game that wasnt possible and as a result I couldnt recruit any decent units, despite having the top barracks built.Is this normal?

Second, in the EB page it says I can recruit Spartiatai Hoplitai and other Elite units.Is this now possible and where? In Sparta only?
Also there is a second barracks type building which havent yet understood its purpose.Any help is appreciated.

Thanks for the replies guys.

PS - Greek generals on foot! That unit is solid steel!

[Fluvius Camillus]

If I recall correctly, the government is already built in Sparte? It would be a picture of a large building with a I on it.

Remember that you have 4 types of government, check the FAQ for more info on them.

Good luck with the campaign!

~Fluvius

[fomalhaut]

Second, in the EB page it says I can recruit Spartiatai Hoplitai and other Elite units.Is this now possible and where? In Sparta only?
Also there is a second barracks type building which havent yet understood its purpose.Any help is appreciated.

it could be a few things you are missing;
You don't have the correct regional or factional barracks built.

The 'factional' units like the Distinguished Hoplites and Rhodian Slingers are mostly going to be recrutable in Sparta (for Spartans), Rhodes (Slingers), Corinth and Athens, etc.
This isn't RTW where you can recruit Praetorian Guards from Rhodos and England, but must recruit from the native populace and their own fighting styles. So the farther you leave from Hellas, the more locals you will have to rely on.

to expound on the barracks and the reason that you built the highest yet 'cant recruit decent units' is because, again;
There is a factional barracks in which the fighting styles of your culture are taught
there is a regional barracks in which the fighting styles of conquered people are taught

if you built the highest level of barracks yet can't recruit 'decent' units its either; you built a regional barracks in a homeland territory, or a factional barracks in a conquered land.


factional barracks in your case should be built mostly in Hellas proper, so Sparta, Athens, Corinth, Rhodes. These barracks will eventually allow you the training of the famous Rhodian Slingers and Spartan Hoplites.

regional barracks should be built to high levels in conquered regions, like Galatia in Asia Minor. Some places like Halicarnassus benefit greatly from both regional and factional barracks as they have diverse unit pools.

[moonburn]

there´s also the tip of the pelloponese wich enables you acess to 3 diferent merc pools when you´re swimming in cash you might want to visit it (only acessable by sea) and recruit a few units there wich are very usefull particulary against the roman scum since their armies tend to be hard so normally i just recruit 3 full stacks there and ferry them to sicily magna graecia or a litle bit further north using useless fm´s to either block them (or siege them) or delay their advances while your "league" army is busy elsewhere

[fomalhaut]

due to roleplaying I have a hard time having a mercenary arming acting without an allied general or family member.

[Ksifos]

Guys I apologize since now the building is there in Sparta.Where the "HOMELAND AVAILABLE" trait exists a Type I government is possible.That was what I was asking.Probably next time I should look better even when I am in the minus and all are greyed out :-P

For my next question, what is the purpose of building a "conscription center", that is the second barracks type in my homeland cities.I mean do I get any extra units for example in Sparta or Athens? Or this is only for more distant provinces like Rhodes and such?
As far as I understand it (with fomalhaut explanation) I should only build factional barracks and not this auxiliary barracks in Greece.Right or not?

Small update - Macedonian did hit hard and to save Athens I had to sacrifice three generals (among them my faction leader) in a battle near the city.Afterwards He besieged Athens two times got repelled and now, having had one of his fleets with ten units gone to the bottom of the sea :-D, tries to replenish his armies.But I have a decent economy now and "To Macedonia" is a near future possibility.The question atm is Epirus.Should I hit them or let them be as a "buffer" to a potential Roman invasion? My advisor cries out for Delphi being besieged by barbarians :-P

moonburn - You mean the middle leg of Pelloponese where it has 3 different borders? Neat! Well I think this faction is viable atm but I too have the question of what will happen when Romans invade.I was hoping of a strong economy and an elite native greek army.Maybe I am wrong we shall see :-)

[Poulp']

IIRC, Epirus besieging Aetolia should trigger a script and put you at war with them.

My experience shows that Epirus as a buffer state doesn't work; they either get stomped by SPQR or it works too well (Epirus possessing the whole illyrian coast) and they become a problem for you. Then, they eventually get crushed between SPQR and you, and in the best case scenario, get exiled in Central Europe.
Mind you, in the meantime, Epirus does a fine job building KH-friendly structures (I'm thinking mines and barracks ripe for the taking.)

I don't think building a local MIC in Sparta serves any purpose; the client ruler/general you may recruit is not worth sacrificing the higher tier of buildings you could reach with a homeland goverment. Wait, the recruitment of client ruler is now tied to the lvl4 building itself... So, no purpose whatsoever in doing so in Sparta.

For your recruitment need, check the Recruitment Viewer which should come installed with EB, and,
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php

More on recruitment:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...nt-information

[Ksifos]

Poulp - You got it pretty right.I was forced to redesign my strategy.I wanted to capture Pergamon and Halikarnassos so that I would boost my sea trade, which I think is vital for getting a strong economy as Greece.But Seleucids got there first :-P
So now I turned on Epirus and hope to establish friendly relations with the Senate, for serving two purposes.Take advantage of the Adriatic intertrade since I believe Epirus now is a possible target and earn some time before Romans invade Greece.
Only thing that worries me is that AI has advanced in tech and I have to build numbers in case the inevitable happens.

Still learning the game but all things I see are well designed and to the right direction.Like for example roads add to law, that's very correct.
Maybe CA should give this mod the proper attention and get some useful ideas for the next series of RTW.

[vollorix]

I actually like turning Epirotes into Illyrians, while playing KH, once their cities are ripe, as Poulp noticed.
If they survive long enough, they might have built large mines in Illyria by then - another full harvest ;)

[Ksifos]

I actually like turning Epirotes into Illyrians, while playing KH, once their cities are ripe, as Poulp noticed.
If they survive long enough, they might have built large mines in Illyria by then - another full harvest ;)

Thanks for the tip.

[moonburn]

i normally try to dislodge the epirotes as fast as possible and them pay them a small fortune so as they keep fighting in tarentum if worked properly (and it happens 15% of the cases i tried both with maks aswell as with kh) they take arpis messana rhegion and develop that entire area while keeping the romans under pressure wich enables me to reach with a diplomat in time to the aedui to forge an alliance and send a quick stack to take bononia and gift it to them (not patavium tough you want the silver mines of segestica at full work)

quick advice save up a bit and hurry up taking naissos and building forts on the river passages of the danube that normally leaves the getai fighting the triballoi (?) and they won´t bother you for a few decades (as in they won´t venture south of the danube except for kallatis wich they normally take )

also the money cows are dalmatia must have develop fast and build the best mines as fast as possible 6.300 mnai per turn and also makedonia 4.800 mnai per turn are your best economical aproach and remember mining might not get you snow white fast but it helps paying for her presents later :P

[Ksifos]

moonburn - thanks for the nice ideas.Still the game sometimes leads your strategies than yourself.To add to that, I am amazed of how well the whole faction system is balanced, avoiding the gangbanging tactics of vanilla.My hats off to the moders - once again.

I had two unepxected events, the Pergamon and Hellikarnasos under Seleucid control, rebelled and put my flag.That immediately put me into war with Seleucid and had to disperse my units in three different fronts.I am already in a long war with Epiroted but I cant beat them.I was blind to think of them as an easy prey and that reminded me of two things.First scout well, second do not underestimate the Elite units in EB :-P
Macedonia presses me in the northern front, continually besieging Demetrias.Had to fight there too, and finally built a stone wall to get some basic protection.
I now have the money but...having NOT payed attention I spent all population of Athens into retraining my armies (my main tech city) and now no more good units for me.That's where mercenaries come into play.Another aspect very well designed in EB (city manpower, use of mercs).
Good thing is Epirote is also drained and does not attack with Elite units but more with mercs armies.
Probably my next step is getting Pella as you sugest.

Overall my BEST game in RTW.Gone to "Continue Campaign". :-D

[Ca Putt]

yeah wait till Sinope or Massilia defect to you THAT is where problems start :D and there is more to come ;)

[Ksifos]

yeah wait till Sinope or Massilia defect to you THAT is where problems start :D and there is more to come ;)

Lol can't wait to that.

A Small update - I finally pushed Epirotes away form Aetolia.They also lost a major battle on the mountains of west greece and now I am besieging Ambrakia.Hopefully I will conquer it.In the Macedonian front, I took Pella which was plagued but DIDN'T show in the city details card.As a result my general is plagued now.
The Macedonian had not said his final word.He brought a full (!) stack from Byzantium besieged and conquered Pergamon.In the meantime I brought a good army from main land to instantly besiege Pergamon so that he doesn't destroy my buildings.And I succeeded.Took the city back intact :-)
I am now in a state where money flows but lacking better units.So its time for a small brake from military operations, to tech up in some cities with good population to serve as bases of conscription.

Only problem so far is a lot of random CTDs, especially after battles :-/

[fomalhaut]

if you want advice on CTD's, this is what i do; only fight two battles per play session. SAVE before every battle as well. I have found that on my third battle crashes pretty consistently so just exit to desktop and return.

it's annoying, but would you rather refight the Heroic Victory against 4000 desperate Epirotes? I'm on a Macedonia campaign, after killing the last of the Aikaides my enmity against the Epirotes ended and am now supporting some Syrakusan who has taken the mantle to defend Magna Graeca (i don't want to!). Pyhrrus went all the way to rome with those blasted elephants! I invaded and with Rome retook every city, reinstalled Rome's government (since the AI will just build another one instead of repairing their own) and gave everything but Tarantem to Rome after killing Pyhrrus and Alexandros. The aforementioned Syrakusan is now receiving 6000 minai a year to keep his fight going, this time to Sicily! Pretty cool anecdote on the other end of Greece for ya! :)

[Ksifos]

I read on another topic setting the CPU affinity on one core, since I am on a multi-core machine but that didn't help either.I am so desperate I may try Windows Update's compatibility fixes, since in RTW Vanilla I seldom get a CTD.Now I save every major battle before and after :-/

Small update - having took Ambrakia a FULL stack came from the north led by their faction leader and besieged the city.I had my faction leader town and quickly raised an army both recruiting and hiring mercs.Needles to say this was the most exciting battle ever played in RTW (until the next one :-P).Around 6000 soldiers fighting to death.A real bloodbath! I was amazed to see the AI taking his general out of battle and re-charging.Man these guys have done some serious job! I almost lost the battle when my general on foot and a couple of his army ran after their general but he was on horses, so had to round him.Meanwhile around three of his units were chasing me - it was a lol situation.I only killed him for seconds before their units reached me but then lost morale and routed.An "Average Victory" that cost me my faction leader (AI controlled, died heroically) but a massive blow to the Epirotes and Ambrakia with a royal barrack for us!

Fomalhaut - I guess you play with KH and you employ some commando tactics :-) Invading Italy and restoring Romans! What round are you at? Because in my game at the begining I am struggling to field a decent army against the Macedones - economy is very thin.And they push really hard.
What about Seleucids? You should already have Lesbos and Seleucids should be probing you (Spies, small armies).

[fomalhaut]

KH was one of my first campains in eb! and one of my favorites because of the scripts and the iconic cities and culture.

As Makedon I am staying in Europa for now, with only Lesbos in Asia. AS sent an army of, yes, 7 syrian archers to besiege Byzantion. I just forced diplomacy to make peace because i refuse to go to war with my long term allies because their AI is dumb as to send, yes, again, 7 syrian archers (not seven units! seven syrians in one unit) to BESIEGE A CITY. sometimes i hate this game.

I just ended the Getai, their citizens distributed to war torn Hellas as even Pella itself has only 1200 people. Doing what Philip did all over again isn't an easy task and many men had to be taken from their farms to restore Macedon.

[Ca Putt]

oh those fights against Epirotes are the best! did they bring elephants with them in you battle?

still remember killing off virtually all their proffessional/veteran troops with mostly levys. special mention to a unit of hoplitai haploi who killed both units of elephants, they had been peppered with loads of javelins but just did not die, when (after crushing my ekdromoi) all of them got killed by this gang of Hoplitai haploi, totally explainable but man, those guys must've felt awesome^^ many a man lost his life that day but when the dust cleared, I had a bunch of veterans and the epirotes lost a fullstack with all their jokers^^.

Imo the Epirotes are the ideal enemy in the KH campaign:
they have immediate acess to your inital expansion territories
you don't have to throw them out of their homeland to get going (like the macedons)
they have amoung the most powerfull elite units they throw at you in reasonable quantities (unlike AS or Romani)
for some odd reason you don't always face phalangites when fighting them(the aforementioned battle actually only had two units of them.
you fight them at a time when you just start training levy or first medium grade troops.
and they are not so damn dug in like the AS or ptolemies or migrate to strage places like the romans when you got em, you got em and can either end it or let them live just alittle longer

[fomalhaut]

Yes the Epirotes are the ideal enemy, as Makedon you mostly fight them with your levy's against their semi professional force. Every battle is very close and you use every available unit, you get to appreciate akontistai and to really appreciate peltasts when you can finally recruit them.

and when you actually fight battles against Pyhrrus himself it's really really fun! because he is easily the best general at that point in the game so it's kind of intimidating, and as Macedon there is the personal enmity against him due to his usurping of the throne of Macedonia. it's not just another general, but freaking Pyhrrus of Epirote! lot's of fun roleplaying opportunities in Mak and KH early game because of the Epirotes

[Ksifos]

In my campaign no elephants hopefully, but quite often armies with elite units.Mainly Chaeonion Agema, Thorakitai and Heavy Cavalry.I seldom confronted them in the open, cause my best infantry was Ekdromoi which I think are less good than Aploi maybe because of their formation.Ekdromoi can not stand a long fight with heavy infantry, are excellent though at chasing skirmishers and good against cavalry under circumstances.
I was positioning my armies in defensive spots usually mountains and while in the calculation they always had a safe margin, in the battle they become exhausted and that was a HUGE advantage.I took out some of their armies that way and when had the opportunity grabbed cities.

Having just a little experience of KH campaign I tend to agree, Epirotes should be left alone, so to develop the area for you.If I knew the "defect cities" scenario I wouldnt have attacked them.

What exactly do you mean you give money to other factions? Using the "Attack Faction" in diplo or just gifting them? Because the "Attack Faction" in vanila is flawed, does it work in EB?

[fomalhaut]

i'm not sure if the 'attack faction' really works, but i like to do it as a formality for roleplaying purposes. but i give money and territory the same way as any other diplomatic agreement. I don't want the greeks of Magna Graeca to die, so i give them lots of money to protect the hellenes there. On the other hand, I didn't want the Aikaides to rule Italy, so i had to kill them and take the assets they controlled, repair them, and give_region to Rome.

[Ksifos]

Occasionaly I also gift money and cities but only the natural diplo way - no console here :-P

Today I had a major battle near Sardike.Epirotes had a full stack with a good mix for that type of terrain (woodland).On the other hand I had a strong army with KH phalangitai. Thorakitai, KH heavy peltasts, some merc peltasts and some Hippeis.In charge was my new general talent Koios Athinaios.Despite having the edge in the pre-battle calc (8:5) I suffered a terrible defeat! I thought of putting the phalanx in the center as a rock and manoever on the flanks with the mobile thorakitai and peltasts in order to encircle the enemy.I was wrong !!! The Epirote general somehow made the pahalanxes break formation, thus being inefficient.Then he made a charge through my thorakitai (27 defense, spearmen with shield) and made them route on contact !!! I was wtf, watching my beautiful army becoming dead bodies.

That defeat tought me some lessons though.
- The phalanx needs micro-management or else its not worth it.
- Thorakitai despite the stats are not reliable or so I believe.Standard hoplite are strong defensive units, because they seem to use something like shieldwall from BI.
- I need cavalry.The Epirote had in his third row, 3 units of cavalry and that was the final blow.
- Last but not less, I wont take the calc seriously again :-P

Speaking of gangbanging.In minor asia I am in a situation where -lol with me here- Ptolemaioi backstabbed on me and allied with Seleucids !!! Two vast empires in a joint war against a newly founded nation :-P
Needless to say while Seleucids are thin on resources, because I 've kill thousands of them, Ptolemaioi bring a LOT! Now that is a real situation! :-) My main battle ares with them is around Ipsos, which struggled to pacify.

I am on the process of eliminating Macedonia as I besiege Byzantium, their last city.One more turn to surrender.

I want to say again the battles in EB are thrilling.I 've played literally hundreds of battles in RTW/BI vanilla yet the feeling here is different.It is exciting.I can not believe such an old game had such a potential.If only the CTD problems were not there.But hey ctrl-s isn't that hard :-)

[athanaric]

That defeat tought me some lessons though.

Likely, your battle was lost due to bad terrain, exhaustion, and exploits used by the AI.

- The phalanx needs micro-management or else its not worth it.

True. It also always needs one or two mobile units per phalanx block to watch their backs.

- Thorakitai despite the stats are not reliable or so I believe.Standard hoplite are strong defensive units, because they seem to use something like shieldwall from BI.

Thorakitai are one of the best anti-cavalry troops in the game. I have lots of experience fighting against them when playing an Eastern faction. My suggestion is: Keep them, and use them in their intended roles. Classical Hoplites are better at charging the enemy or soaking up arrows. Thorakitai OTOH are like an anti-cavalry version of Legionaries, i.e. more mobile and versatile. They should also be slightly better on walls, due to having javelins (death from above) and better stamina. Though your wall fighter unit of choice against heavy troops should be Thorakitai Hoplitai, who will utilize AP swords when on walls.

Very likely, your Thorakitai were surrounded and exhausted, not to mention the AI using unfair and unrealistic exploits against you, like gold chevrons, cavalry charge-through, pike swerve, and the like.

- I need cavalry.The Epirote had in his third row, 3 units of cavalry and that was the final blow.

KH has very decent cavalry, though not as spectacular as other Hellenistic factions. Your strongest asset are Thessalian lancers, followed by Hippeis Xystophoroi (slightly weaker but with much better AoR), and Prodromoi. You should also utilize Hetairoi Aspidophoroi, which are quite dangerous against a variety of targets. Also, Skythian HAs are dirt cheap and supremely useful. And don't forget your run-of-the-mill Hippakontistai. They're worse than all other units I've mentioned, but still very effective against elephants. Not to mention easily available.

Speaking of gangbanging.In minor asia I am in a situation where -lol with me here- Ptolemaioi backstabbed on me and allied with Seleucids !!! Two vast empires in a joint war against a newly founded nation :-P

You're i luck that you are KH and not poor Saba. This happens to Saba players all the time, and they have to make do with a far inferior factional roster and infrastructure.

Needless to say while Seleucids are thin on resources, because I 've kill thousands of them, Ptolemaioi bring a LOT! Now that is a real situation! :-) My main battle ares with them is around Ipsos, which struggled to pacify.

Try to take Kypros from them, and use it, together with Rodos and Krete, as a naval base for raiding Alexandria etc.

[vollorix]

atharic is right: once your troops are exhausted and under pressure, a cavalry charge with a value of 40! will rout any unit, even the Spartans, and your "tank" general bodyguards will die like flies ( heavy cav. got "ap" spears, which makes the charge even more devastating.
of course, if your general got lots of command stars and moral boosting traits and ancillaries, and is nearby the charged unit, then, and only then, they will not even get shocked, but stand their ground, at least untill they are too depleted, surrounded, and then finaly rout.
You´ve got the perfect weapon against other hellenistic nations: your spartan bodyguards - use them to counter charge the Hetairoi, and watch those super cavalry melting away. Keep a unit of Prodromoi ( a depleted one, if you have to, wich comes often handy ), in reserve to catch the tired enemy general, and your victory is secured.