EB - Questions and first thoughts

[Ksifos]

Occasionaly I also gift money and cities but only the natural diplo way - no console here :-P

Today I had a major battle near Sardike.Epirotes had a full stack with a good mix for that type of terrain (woodland).On the other hand I had a strong army with KH phalangitai. Thorakitai, KH heavy peltasts, some merc peltasts and some Hippeis.In charge was my new general talent Koios Athinaios.Despite having the edge in the pre-battle calc (8:5) I suffered a terrible defeat! I thought of putting the phalanx in the center as a rock and manoever on the flanks with the mobile thorakitai and peltasts in order to encircle the enemy.I was wrong !!! The Epirote general somehow made the pahalanxes break formation, thus being inefficient.Then he made a charge through my thorakitai (27 defense, spearmen with shield) and made them route on contact !!! I was wtf, watching my beautiful army becoming dead bodies.

That defeat tought me some lessons though.
- The phalanx needs micro-management or else its not worth it.
- Thorakitai despite the stats are not reliable or so I believe.Standard hoplite are strong defensive units, because they seem to use something like shieldwall from BI.
- I need cavalry.The Epirote had in his third row, 3 units of cavalry and that was the final blow.
- Last but not less, I wont take the calc seriously again :-P

Speaking of gangbanging.In minor asia I am in a situation where -lol with me here- Ptolemaioi backstabbed on me and allied with Seleucids !!! Two vast empires in a joint war against a newly founded nation :-P
Needless to say while Seleucids are thin on resources, because I 've kill thousands of them, Ptolemaioi bring a LOT! Now that is a real situation! :-) My main battle ares with them is around Ipsos, which struggled to pacify.

I am on the process of eliminating Macedonia as I besiege Byzantium, their last city.One more turn to surrender.

I want to say again the battles in EB are thrilling.I 've played literally hundreds of battles in RTW/BI vanilla yet the feeling here is different.It is exciting.I can not believe such an old game had such a potential.If only the CTD problems were not there.But hey ctrl-s isn't that hard :-)

[athanaric]

That defeat tought me some lessons though.

Likely, your battle was lost due to bad terrain, exhaustion, and exploits used by the AI.

- The phalanx needs micro-management or else its not worth it.

True. It also always needs one or two mobile units per phalanx block to watch their backs.

- Thorakitai despite the stats are not reliable or so I believe.Standard hoplite are strong defensive units, because they seem to use something like shieldwall from BI.

Thorakitai are one of the best anti-cavalry troops in the game. I have lots of experience fighting against them when playing an Eastern faction. My suggestion is: Keep them, and use them in their intended roles. Classical Hoplites are better at charging the enemy or soaking up arrows. Thorakitai OTOH are like an anti-cavalry version of Legionaries, i.e. more mobile and versatile. They should also be slightly better on walls, due to having javelins (death from above) and better stamina. Though your wall fighter unit of choice against heavy troops should be Thorakitai Hoplitai, who will utilize AP swords when on walls.

Very likely, your Thorakitai were surrounded and exhausted, not to mention the AI using unfair and unrealistic exploits against you, like gold chevrons, cavalry charge-through, pike swerve, and the like.

- I need cavalry.The Epirote had in his third row, 3 units of cavalry and that was the final blow.

KH has very decent cavalry, though not as spectacular as other Hellenistic factions. Your strongest asset are Thessalian lancers, followed by Hippeis Xystophoroi (slightly weaker but with much better AoR), and Prodromoi. You should also utilize Hetairoi Aspidophoroi, which are quite dangerous against a variety of targets. Also, Skythian HAs are dirt cheap and supremely useful. And don't forget your run-of-the-mill Hippakontistai. They're worse than all other units I've mentioned, but still very effective against elephants. Not to mention easily available.

Speaking of gangbanging.In minor asia I am in a situation where -lol with me here- Ptolemaioi backstabbed on me and allied with Seleucids !!! Two vast empires in a joint war against a newly founded nation :-P

You're i luck that you are KH and not poor Saba. This happens to Saba players all the time, and they have to make do with a far inferior factional roster and infrastructure.

Needless to say while Seleucids are thin on resources, because I 've kill thousands of them, Ptolemaioi bring a LOT! Now that is a real situation! :-) My main battle ares with them is around Ipsos, which struggled to pacify.

Try to take Kypros from them, and use it, together with Rodos and Krete, as a naval base for raiding Alexandria etc.

[vollorix]

atharic is right: once your troops are exhausted and under pressure, a cavalry charge with a value of 40! will rout any unit, even the Spartans, and your "tank" general bodyguards will die like flies ( heavy cav. got "ap" spears, which makes the charge even more devastating.
of course, if your general got lots of command stars and moral boosting traits and ancillaries, and is nearby the charged unit, then, and only then, they will not even get shocked, but stand their ground, at least untill they are too depleted, surrounded, and then finaly rout.
You´ve got the perfect weapon against other hellenistic nations: your spartan bodyguards - use them to counter charge the Hetairoi, and watch those super cavalry melting away. Keep a unit of Prodromoi ( a depleted one, if you have to, wich comes often handy ), in reserve to catch the tired enemy general, and your victory is secured.

[Ksifos]

I apologize I didnt give much detail for that battle.Before I do, I would like to say that I love being beaten in RTW finally (despite that AI cheats) :-P

The terrain was flat and had a clerance between the trees.That seemed ideal for the phalanx, so that I would deploy them in the center on that clearance.At the right I put my Strategos and some peltasts along with some hippeis.On the left (which was my strong flank) I had Thorakitai, KH heavy peltasts, Thraikioi Peltasts mercs, and standard Greek Hoplitai and some Thureophoroi.It was like this:

KH Pelts__Thrakioi_Thorakitai_Phalanx_Phalanx_Phalanx_Thorakitai_Strategos_KH Pelts

-------Hoplitai-----Thureoforoi-------Hippeis------------------------------------------------------

My strat was to throw the phalanx in center and block them, while Strategos should hold the right.In the meantime my left second row should encircle their right, while Hippeis were left as reserves.That was the plan.But there come the small battle details that as IRL may turn a whole of events.

- For example my left was inside the woods.The opposition was mainly falxmen and thought I could pepper them in javelins before I charge with my heavy infantry.In fact the peppering did work.But when charged with Thorakitai, who I micromanaged to throw all their javelins (!), I got very very surprised to see the naked falxmen cutting my spearmen in pieces.Some should say this is logical.But I was fighting three thined falxmen units with both my thorakitai and my KH peltasts while Thrakioi were throwing Javelins from behind.I thought this should work but it didnt :-P

- Second.The "phalanx-wall" in the middle wasnt working.He threw his general at first and disrupted the formation.I also didnt know that phalanx need micro-management to do damage (this is not a nice bug :-/).So that was bad decision too.

- Third.My Strategos with the help of Hippeis won the right flank and routed the opposition, but while I was both angry for losing on my left and excited for winning the right I threw him on a bunch of enemies that couldnt confront and finally he routed (after fighting like a lion).So I did my mistake too :-)

*My left was fighting conservatively, (opportunistically in terms of strategy) so no fatigue was involved.They engaged in FRESH condition.

Overall despite the loss, it was a GREAT battle and Kroios Athinaios DID refought this Epirote army.But this time he had the supreme Longhophoroi Hippeis on his side, that made the difference ;-)

Cavalry is so nicely deployed inside the game both at terms of efficiency, cost and usage.Another thumbs up to the modders.

Thanks for contributing your experience and opinion to this topic.I really like to read them.

[fomalhaut]

sounds like you should be taking many screenshots and perhaps writing an after action report? i have over 1000 screenshots from the many campaigns i've done, but i get scared to write an AAR due to the high quality of many on here. EB AAR's are so above anything others due to the complexity and nuance allowed by the mechanics

[Ksifos]

Hehe that's not my intention.BTW all screenshots I take are black (Windows 7 x64).This is a NEW game to me and I am learning new things each battle.I am just posting what I am dealing with to get ideas from experienced players. :-)

For example in RTW vanila, I used to put on the flanks cavalry along with skirmishers.If an infantry or cav attack happened I usually melee and win ...FAST.Here this is not the case because of higher morale.I had for about three minutes, Macedone Akontistai in loose formation (!) fighting my Phalangitai - how can cloth wearers stand against heavy infantry for that long is beyond me, still happened and lost :-P
But on the other hand it was the fight for their survival as a nation and maybe the engine CORRECTLY boosted their morale and stats ;-)

I had a major battle in Minor Asia against Ptolemae scam.Four armies against two of mine.I had a terrible time with two of their Klerouchoi Phalangitai.I had them surrounded with 4 (!) units fighting over 5 minutes and finally my units routed, lol.
I also encountered a Klerouchoi Galatae Swordsmen cutting through my Hoplites - this was horrible.

I certainly need to change my tactics and adapt to the terrain and the new style of battles.

[fomalhaut]

yeah that's a problem for me too, we both have the same OS and if it weren't for Steam's overlay screenshot feature id not have a single screenie.

Yeah, i really hope for some responses in the population script thread Vollorix made, because i really am just sick and tired of PT and AS spam. With small nations like Epirus and Macedon and the league of Hellenes, its not an issue because they each have about 3 cities. but with HUGE empires its just sooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring and a chore to fight a never ending war because their populations don't run out while mine, from retraining, are completely gone.

adapting to different tactical situations is very fun to me. Don't ask why, but Antigonos' son left with only his Hetairoi and local guides to the northern lands, areas that the Sauro nor the Sweboz dare go. Perhaps he was scouting for future allies when we go farther north than Dacia, but Makedonia had yet to lose a battle to anyone and man, we were destroyed by a local Eleutheroi Family member! He hired a full stack of locals and the tactics necessary with these types of soldiers was far different than Hammer and Anvil which won Hellas for us. The super thick swamp and woods did not leave any room for our hired cavalry or himself to maneuver, and the enemies attacked so quickly it was a joke! He knew the battle was lost, and while the enemy army chased my routing mercenaries through the dense forest, he chased the enemy general to the ends of the earth and finally overcame him. It really was epic. He is now on his way back to Makedonia, his dreams of a northern colony now lost. (that army cost 50000 which we can't afford to do again). Or perhaps he will bring the veterans and conquerers of Ambrakia, Epidamnos, Magna Graeca and Sparte in a quest to get revenge ;-) sounds like a perfect use of state funds