EB - Questions and first thoughts

[Ksifos]

Ca Putt - as I was recruiting in Chersonisos to attack the Sauromatai, a bunch of events happened.

- I get a game message that Senatus was DESTROYED! I was like !!?? I mean it's the first time I see the Romans dead.Nice :-)
- I scouted the area as I already was planing a military expendition to Taras in South Italy (an Epirote region atm).It all was a carthage property.I brought my army in Taras and after a brief fight outside the town, I besieged it and finally took it.Then after I do the proper pacification and order the Type I government, two Carthagenian full stacks invade and one besieges Taras.This is going to be fun, as I can safely say the two out of the three mightiest military forces (3rd I believe is Seleucids) in the world are going to confront each other.
- All of sudden Pontic scam-wannabe (:-P) heads towards Side with a half-stack and cancels our alliance.Had to bring an army from Tarsus in front of his to make him retreat back in his territory.
-Next round a full stack made of Hellenic Acontistai, led by a carthage general, disembarks and besieges Dalmation who I had recently acquired and am in the process to install the new government.He suffered a crushing defeat though and his general barely made it alive ;-)

So the west front is on FIRE.I try to keep a financial balance and continue advancing my economy, with building.I need to keep the peace with Pontus.To do that I need some armies in minor asia :-/
I dont know if it wise now to provoke the Sauromatai.Maybe a small scale war with them is an option.But I would suffer in diplomatic relations, trade rights and maybe I risk a BIG counter-attack from them.Well Getai still fight them but you never know with these savage people :-P

Emporion just rebelled (Eleutheroi) and my garrsion was annihilated by the Lusotans.Hopefully I entered a peace treaty right away.

Btw are you on any campaign atm?

[moonburn]

ksifos if you wish to avoid fighting the endless arche seulekids spam stacks and their ptolemaions cousins your best hope is that there´s alot of factions in mikra asia with whom you can ally with and stomp them now and then

hallikarnasus will eventually rebel to you so one of my strategies is let the makedonians live they take pergamon and from there they will always act as a buffer against the seulekids (if you can get them as protectorate is even better since then you can send relief armies when you want and when you don´t wanna fight them just send mnai to the maks and they fight for you )

another possible strategy is conquering ankyra and then let it rebel to the arverni or aedui leaving ptolomaions seleukids a keltik faction pontus and if you´re lucky hay and the makedonians fighting it off in mikra asia as you´re left unharmed to fight off the romans carthies sauromatae (defensive batles against the sauromatae ofc) and the eventual betraial of the getai once they take the scordiscii lands and decide that dalmatia and illiryan should belong to them wich forces you to take them on

when the getai eventually betray you (last time it was in 167bc) you should imediatly take their lands and hope they haven´t went north and either destroy them or let them as a protectorate in mikra sckytia or skytia (i like taking kallatis so when i can i let them have olbia aslong as they surrender if not i destroy them)

unlike the makedonians and epirotes leaving the getai allive serves no purpose in eb2 it might since you´ll have the boii to contend with but thats something i will have to analyse proper

[Ksifos]

moonburn - ok got it.But again I think you are exagerating concerning the diadohoi factions.I mean it's just two big empires, that if you play aggressively (as most humans do) will try to block you.That is how the AI is programmed.Yet it is manageable.As you said alliances is one option, raiding deep in his mainland another and so on.I know it's hard and tiring maybe boredom to some, but if you like fighting it's awesome :-)
Plus minor asia is a VERY rich area, full of port-towns, mines, etc and a strategic point too.Still I respect that someone may have another strategy.In my eyes going west could yield more problems as expanding, could provoke many nations at the same time.

I am around 210BC and Getai are fighting over the steppes of Scythia against the Sauromatai.I guess I won't bother them :-P
Still I always have one army near my borders, no matter how good friends the neighbours are.For example the Pontus is showing clear signs of becoming a traitor scam.Still I am not pushing Pontus, only build strong armies to make him consider going the opposite way ;-)

I am now on my expendition to South Italy.Are Carthage units a bit overpowered or is it just me?

[moonburn]

must be just you they bleed and die like all the rest you might just have to adjust a bit if they bring armoured you use rhodoi ig they bring less armoured kretai will do

remove them from italy/sicily and they´ll pay you nicely for peace (or they should)

[fomalhaut]

Carthage units are pretty well balanced, Liby-Phoenician Hoplites are on par with anything in the Hellenistic world. Libyan Spearmen are their own Theurophoroi and do their job very well! i love using them in Kart campaigns. though i prefer the greek spearmen due to the variety of skins available.

Carthage has access to the skirmishers of Numidia, now those are annoying! not to mention their super skilled bowmen. Their Elite Africans are definitely super powerful, will whoop cavalry and any armored unit. They aren't overpowered though, it's what i expect from them.

Better beat them where you want them gone before their reforms though, their new spearmen, assault infantry, elite swordmen, etc. will give you a lot of hassle. I laughed through the Hellens i fought after the carthaginian reforms.


Never used the Sacred Band in any sense, they were cool to have on the right wing just for symbolic reasons, but they are one of the ugliest units in the game IMO. They seem reminiscent of vanilla units compared to the high detail of every other unit in the game. and their Iphrakates style phalanx is really ugly and ineffective in EB, its why i don't use Iphrikitous Hoplites or Dacian Phalanx, on contact they immediately turn to secondary weapons

[Ksifos]

must be just you they bleed and die like all the rest you might just have to adjust a bit if they bring armoured you use rhodoi ig they bring less armoured kretai will do

remove them from italy/sicily and they´ll pay you nicely for peace (or they should)

Probably it's the fact I deal with them for the first time.And since I face their Italian units who have defeated Senatus, (thus are full experienced) they are VERY STRONG ;-)
That's the goal, throw them back where they belong, hehe.I 'll keep you posted.

fomalhaut - I am facing late era armies (I am around 210BC) so Carthage throws the best it can produce.But their stats seem a bit high, that's why I asked about overpowering their units.AFAIK Carthage was never about military tech rather than tactical power, alliances/ vassalages with locals and numbers.But maybe I am wrong since haven't studied them in detail.Can't agree more with you about the Sacred Band.Their design isn't nice.

What you said about their secondary weapon is puzzling me as of lately.For example I use a lot Thorakitai Hoplitai who have the option (controllable by the player) to switch to their makhaira.Now this mode in close fight should be quite lethal, at least for attacks aiming at the back of enemy units - but aint.I am just trying to figure our its use.But maybe again it's not deployed inside the game engine the way it should be.

[fomalhaut]

I am discussing short spear pike phalanx's in the style of Iphrikates reforms. They rarely work because they always switch to their secondary rather than staying in formation.

And well, yes historically Carthage was more about what you stated than military superiority par se, BUT! these reforms represent Carthage after learning much from Rome. So in your history, Carthage learned greatly from the SPQR it conquered and now probably has a semi professional military.

remember, only the general outline is historically accurate. everything else is up to you :-)

[Ca Putt]

atm I've got a KH campaign with a lot of roleplay ongoing but I rarely find time to play and for some reason EB is experiencing uttery regular CTDs lately :(

those high stats are probably because of the experience, but the Poeni have some nasty tricks up thier sleeves. the elite pikemen can get as annoying as AS Agyraspidai, and the other troops generelly are of good quality. personally I had some problems with elite liby-phonician Infantry(the guys with axes) as they really causes some casualties amung my epilektoi and Spartiatai :(
tho I never faced the iberian attack infantry and only small contingents of elite african infantry. after I destroyed Carthage(oh arrent we all the same) and most of their coastal centers, they started spamming Garamantian Infantry like hell.

on Carthagian Military:
well they are the rich kid on the block - not the strongest but they can pay guys to fight for them and when it comes to a firefight, they have the most expensive gun...

[Ksifos]

fomalhaut - sorry I misunderstood.Still I am puzzled why are hoplitai on sword so inefficient? Any possible thoughts?

Ca Putt - I had this funny battle where two Carthage armies (around 6000 in total) besieged fresh conquered Rhegion (next to Sicily).I had three cavalry units inside and a full stack outside, next to the city so it was me around 20' doing circles with the Prodromoi on the center square and about 2000 enemies chasing me(their VERY GOOD STAMINA proved vital) while my reinforcements initially being delayed, finally appeared on map, entered the city and after a fierce battle prevailed :-P Anyway I managed a Heroic victory but...after loading campaign map, CTD :-(( So now where to find the courage to do this again? :-P

Before I also had many CTDs but troubleshooting showed me I needed to patch the game with the units missing.Now less CTDs most after battles :-/

[Ca Putt]

arrrrrghh, now those are the most annoying! personally I often auto_win those - tho often enough I refight them as autowin often has much more causualties and almost never kills the enemy FM. but what was his army composition? full of elites? levy only or regular army? did the carthagians sent elephants against you already - In my campaign carthagians only had one unit of elephants left when I came which WAS the garrison of the westernmost settlement on sicily and I autoresolved it because I was sick of siege battles for a while^^
Yeah prodromoi are very good medium cavalry, can run around for houres, also usefull for charging!

the thing i remember best about battleing carthage was that Kyrene got attacked all the time by huge stacks(from both sides) which resulted in me garrisoning a fullstack + a avant garde made out of cavalry in/in front of it. It was a good idea to destroy the recruitment centers as that took out the feenemkin which really are dangerous when on walls. oh and the siege engines

I actually had it quitte stable a year ago, gotto look into that in more detail.

[athanaric]

fomalhaut - I am facing late era armies (I am around 210BC) so Carthage throws the best it can produce.But their stats seem a bit high, that's why I asked about overpowering their units.AFAIK Carthage was never about military tech rather than tactical power, alliances/ vassalages with locals and numbers.But maybe I am wrong since haven't studied them in detail.Can't agree more with you about the Sacred Band.Their design isn't nice.

In the game, Carthage AI, like any other factions, spams elites. Especially those pikemen which make it steamroll Rome. Extremely annoying.

What you said about their secondary weapon is puzzling me as of lately.For example I use a lot Thorakitai Hoplitai who have the option (controllable by the player) to switch to their makhaira.Now this mode in close fight should be quite lethal, at least for attacks aiming at the back of enemy units - but aint.I am just trying to figure our its use.But maybe again it's not deployed inside the game engine the way it should be.

The Kopis/Falcata/Makhaira weapon has inferior lethality in EB, which is somewhat balanced by an AP trait. This means that Thorakitai Hoplitai should only really switch to their swords when facing heavy infantry such as Classical Hoplites or elite units. Sometimes they can be advantageous versus heavy cavalry (especially cataphracts) too, but the spear has a higher lethality and a decidedly higher attack vs cavalry.
The lethality scale of swords in EB is:
- "crap sword" (short sword of cheap units, sometimes even heavier units such as certain swordsmen around the Caucasus) 0.1 - high attack
- Kopis/Falcata/Makhaira 0.11 - always AP, high attack
- "quality short sword" (e.g. Gladius, Xiphos) 0.13 - high attack
- "long sword" (usually wielded by elites or "Barbarian" swordsmen) 0.225 - medium to high attack value
- common falx 0.26 - always AP
- heavy, two-handed sword or Rhomphaia 0.385 - always AP

Peltastai and Iphikratous Hoplitai have a 0.13 lethality sword. Same for Indohellenic Hoplites.

[fomalhaut]

@Ksifos its not that the hoplite swords are ineffective, but i don't want swordsmen, i want spearmen presenting a cohesive formation of spears. imagine if Macedonian Phalanx's just switched to swords instead of keeping their sarissae out! or if Hoplite Phalanx's always switched to swords like the Hypaspitai do. Use Iphrikatai Hoplitai which i know the KH can train and watch them, even in guard mode, turn into an unorganized mass.



MAN! fighting elephants is soooo fun. Carthage sent two units of them, i had my Peltasts hidden in the grass with auto fire off, they were hidden behind my line of Phalanx and Egyptian Swordsmen. As soon as the Elephants got to the point where even if they ran away they would still get shot, my peltasts appeared from the grass and absolutely destroyed both units! what was left rampaged through the Carthaginian lines while i laughed.

These were elite level (2 silver chevrons) peltasts though, they were auxilaries in Legio I which had experienced a lot of battles. i transferred them to another army since its nice to have experienced units help with a fresh army of regionals (Machimoi and Ethopians)

[Ksifos]

Ca Putt - Well consider me a masochist, but vital battles I am willing to replay and this one is such, hehe.The Carthage bring those poeni elite spearmen (many), elite heavy cavalry, elite pikemen and sacred band (few).And these guys are all veterans, meaning couple of bronze or silver chevrons.They die HARD! I only found one elephant unit as a garrison and ...take notice: I attacked with 1200 men vs 2(!) elephants and lost 216 men, lol (autoresolved).

Athanaric - The Hoplitai when attacked the enemy mainly used their push from behind tactic.Meaning their 'weight' as a unit was pushing the enemy line backwards.The front line of the phalanx was using mostly the sword because they were "in touch" with the enemy.Pushing with the Hoplon (shield) and stubbing with the Xiphos /Kopis (Spartans).I guess you already know these but it's actually unrealistic that Hoplites are so inefficient with the sword.I know the engine has limits still a better value in attack (0,11 is like archer's dagger) maybe would be fairer.I am not complaining just my opinion ;-)

Fomalhaut - Macedonian phalanx was a lot different than the Hoplitai phalanx.The first one was looking to keep the distance, while the latter wanted to come in touch with the enemy.So in the macedonian case yes the sword and the shield were secondary.But in the hoplitai case, both the hoplon and the xiphos were important items in their tactics.Don't get me wrong I do not intend to get into historical arguments with you.It's just I feel something is missing :-)
Didn't confront Elephants in the open yet and to be honest I had my doubts of how easy or hard would be to deal with them.Plain peltasts you say? That is good.Really good! :-)

Anyone of you in KH campaign or having a save with a big progress.I would like to have a clue where my limits should be, if any, haha.

[athanaric]

Athanaric - The Hoplitai when attacked the enemy mainly used their push from behind tactic.Meaning their 'weight' as a unit was pushing the enemy line backwards.The front line of the phalanx was using mostly the sword because they were "in touch" with the enemy.Pushing with the Hoplon (shield) and stubbing with the Xiphos /Kopis (Spartans).I guess you already know these but it's actually unrealistic that Hoplites are so inefficient with the sword.

Hoplon actually means weapon, not shield. That said, their spear is their more characteristic and more important weapon, so the team decided to just leave the sword out except for some hoplite units who were more likely to use their swords.

I know the engine has limits still a better value in attack (0,11 is like archer's dagger) maybe would be fairer.I am not complaining just my opinion ;-)

A dagger actually has 0.04, which is far worse. Nonetheless these curved swords are underpowered and one should probably increase their lethality by a few points to 0.12 (like Thracian sabres) or even higher. The thing is, this weapon is really common in EB and you would be spending a lot of time changing the stats of hundreds of units in your EDU.

Didn't confront Elephants in the open yet and to be honest I had my doubts of how easy or hard would be to deal with them.Plain peltasts you say? That is good.Really good! :-)

Javelineers of any kind is what really kills elephants in EB. Mounted skirmishers, like Dahae or Cantabrian skrimishers, are especially effective.
Don't bother with archers, unless there is a chance they can make them run amok with fire. Arrows won't kill elephants. Siege engines OTOH, like Scorpions, can one-shot elephants even at a long distance, but they aren't cost-efficient (costing even more than elephants...).

[fomalhaut]

i am not discussing Hoplite Phalanx, but Iphrikates Hoplites which were mobile Macedonian Phalanx. they used a longer spear than Hoplites, but shorter than Macedonian.

well 'peltasts' are anything but regular! they are the best skirmishers save Thracian Peltasts

but even akontistai can whoop elephants

[Ksifos]

Athanaric - Thanks for clarifying.

I don't know why, I mean Carthage is a well established nation (so its economy I guess) but no elephants so far.I am about to take Capua and besiege Syracuse.The expendition to Italy was easier than thought.Still a CTD after a battle (again :-/) brought me here writing to you.

Also I am in contact with the Lusotans.They have conquered Northern Italy and share borders with Carthage on the south and Epirus on the east, lol.A war with them would be interesting.
I also have Pontus tresspasing.He has a pathetic army with 4 units going all over minor asia.And since I am chasing him with half stack, he brought a ship and disembarked on Rhodes.But didn't besiege the town.I am worried that if I go on war with Pontus I will provoke AS.

The Getai seems quite but since I stopped gifting money, I see more armies passing near our borders.

fomalhaut - I don't use them at all.Don't know why but is the only KH unit I didn't find of any usefulness.But I may get some to see of the effect you are describing.

[vollorix]

The Getai seems quite but since I stopped gifting money, I see more armies passing near our borders.

Isn´t it a natural behaviour of most humans? ^^

About CTDs: Well, i play really slow in turms of my turns taking forever ( just can´t let it go and want to shape my faction well :S ), but whenever you expect a major/decisive battle where you almost can predict a high probability of a CTD ( aka: reinforcements of any kind, certain terrain like Neil Delta, Bosporus Crossing, ie, agents staying to close to the army/city etc. ) you should save and reload; especially after a couple of hours playing. Mostly i notice a little lag after certain actions, while normaly the campaign map feels smooth, the units responding bit too slow etc. i know a crash is going to occure quite soon. I´ve changed couple of things suggested by people on the forum to stabilize my games, and one of the things was the switch the sound from "miles2d" to "3d sound support" ( sp?) - this has, almost, neutralized crashs after taking a settlement.

[Ksifos]

vollorix - seems you have mastered the CTD subject, lol.I dont have the patience to look in detail the PC behaviour and reload as you probably quite cleverly suggest.The best I can do is press a Ctrl+S :-P
Well RTW is not compatible with Windows 7x64 at least officially.On the other hand Alexander expansion that IS officially compatible still crashes.So? I just settle with it :-)

I am eagerly anticipating EB2, which has a VERY stable engine.Still the gameplay in my eyes was never up to that of RTW.Call me retro but... :-)

Back to my campaign, updating.I was naive to think a BIG empire like Carthage, would easily let me execute my plots.They bring full stacks out of nowhere each round.Capua grassland has become a pool of blood.They loose, I loose too.EPIC battles.
Poeni army is light and very mobile.At first I used mass heavy infantry and got PWNED.Then I adapted.More cavalry, light infantry and ranged units and there we have a nice match-up.A local unit that impressed me a LOT is Brutii infantry.These guys are rock solid, only lack in speed.

In minor Asia, Pontus finally declared war on me then he hides behind his border, lol.I dont want to harash him but if he doesnt agree to peace I may have to.He already let AS and Ptolemaioi inside his territory while he's on war with them.

On the north things are ...quite.I would say DANGEROUSLY quite.Getai has two full stacks, one in Buridava (capital) and the other in Kallatis.I keep wondering why. :-D
Sauromatai in Crimea don't bother.YET I would say.But peace with those savage barbarians is a good thing now.I am in no position to provoke their wrath.

Guys anyone with an ongoing or recent KH campaign please share strategies or approaches.I enjoy reading ;-)

[fomalhaut]

we just posted this in the 'buGGYqw3q555' thread that waiting after battle a minute or so, and saving before every battle, but on the 4rd one exiting and reloading will cut a lot of CTD's. i learned this ad hoc, but seeing it confirmed by other members makes it more credible

[Ksifos]

I am stuck in the "Peninsula" and probably I am losing Capua who fended off a siege but immediately got besieged again by TWO carthagenian stacks.Carthage while lost all sicily and half of Italy, is decided to strike back HARD.As we speak three full stacks are coming from the north and the odds atm are even!
*I am putting IV governments in Italy but cant build troops.At least the first two levels, Local Conscription centers don't.Is that normal?

On the east Pontus in a brave but lethal fight with both us and Seleucids.Seleucids of course is distracted by our Tarsos captivity and sends, bunches of elite armies (usually some cataphracts and plenty of argyraspides).Still the bridge has proved valuable defense point.Seleucid is also at war with the Ptolemaioi and starts capturing his cities.Antiocheia already changed hands.

On the north all is quite.Started gifting Getai again, and he took his armies from the cities and gone north, probably to fight Sauromatai.That was relieving at least.