Submitting Gun Concept

[Vuk]

Say if someone was to come up with a revolutionary concept for a military assault rifle and they wanted to submit the idea to the US military, how would they go about that? Would it be better to submit it to a manufacturing company like FN? If so, how would you contact them?

[Secura]

Have you drawn up some sketches of this 'revolutionary concept'? An explanation of how it works? A working model?

I get the feeling that the weapons manufacturers won't give their time to just anyone who says they have a new idea; you'd need some evidence to show them... so I guess your first step would be to speak to someone who could help you get such material together.

[Vuk]

Have you drawn up some sketches of this 'revolutionary concept'? An explanation of how it works? A working model?

I get the feeling that the weapons manufacturers won't give their time to just anyone who says they have a new idea; you'd need some evidence to show them... so I guess your first step would be to speak to someone who could help you get such material together.

lol, not me, my bro. Yes, he has created scale models of several variants in Auto-CAD, refitted two of his guns test his design, and I have been helping him write up a presentation of it. We don't have a complete working model (nor the money or equipment to build one or have one built), but he has two guns modified to test some of the concepts.
Write now we just don't know who to contact. :P

[Secura]

Ahhh, that's excellent; you're already on your way there, then!

A quick look on Wikipedia provides you with pages for the various firearm manufacturers across the United States; I randomly clicked one of these and found their website, has a list of possible telephone numbers and email addresses you can contact for customer support and enquiries.

That's just one place I looked at in the last few minutes, I guess with a little more diligence you could easily locate one in your local county (or at least, your state) that you could discuss your concepts with and perhaps arrange a meeting.

[Vuk]

Ahhh, that's excellent; you're already on your way there, then!

A quick look on Wikipedia provides you with pages for the various firearm manufacturers across the United States; I randomly clicked one of these and found their website, has a list of possible telephone numbers and email addresses you can contact for customer support and enquiries.

That's just one place I looked at in the last few minutes, I guess with a little more diligence you could easily locate one in your local county (or at least, your state) that you could discuss your concepts with and perhaps arrange a meeting.

Thanks Secura. I was hoping to submit it to one of the larger companies (H&K, FN, etc). (FN would be my main choice)
The problem is that while I saw contact info for sales, etc, I saw nothing for R&D, or something else that I think would apply. I contacted customer service at FN and asked them about it, but I was hoping that maybe someone here knew the best way to go about it. (so it does not come off as any more amateur than necessary :P)
I just hope that they do not need a working prototype, because neither of us could afford that. :P We could probably work with a gunsmith to make a working design with someone of the workings of existing guns, but it would not be the best proof of concept, and my guess is that it would cost many hundreds of dollars. :P

[Secura]

If the concept is really good, a manufacturer may be willing to spend the money on a prototype to test how it works and so on, no?

[Vuk]

If the concept is really good, a manufacturer may be willing to spend the money on a prototype to test how it works and so on, no?

I hope so. :P

[Crazed Rabbit]

lol, not me, my bro. Yes, he has created scale models of several variants in Auto-CAD, refitted two of his guns test his design, and I have been helping him write up a presentation of it. We don't have a complete working model (nor the money or equipment to build one or have one built), but he has two guns modified to test some of the concepts.
Write now we just don't know who to contact. :P

You likely know this, but be careful making functional firearms. Weapons that can fire fully automatically lead quickly to prison time without extensive permits. That's aside from the more mundane dangers from explosions.

Per Secura, you're best bet is a smaller manufacturer of rifles. Magpul, I believe, just makes accessories. But there are a lot of smaller manufacturers who might pay attention to a good idea and presentation - though I'd imagine they get lots of stupid ideas from lots of foolish people, meaning they have screening systems anyone with a good idea would have to get through.

CR

[Vuk]

You likely know this, but be careful making functional firearms. Weapons that can fire fully automatically lead quickly to prison time without extensive permits. That's aside from the more mundane dangers from explosions.

Per Secura, you're best bet is a smaller manufacturer of rifles. Magpul, I believe, just makes accessories. But there are a lot of smaller manufacturers who might pay attention to a good idea and presentation - though I'd imagine they get lots of stupid ideas from lots of foolish people, meaning they have screening systems anyone with a good idea would have to get through.

CR

Don't worry CR, we did nothing illegal. :P One was a bolt-action (we were testing the stock design and recoil suppression) rifle we refitted, and the other was semi-auto. We unfortunately cannot build a fully auto, fully functioning gun, so we are testing each part of the design one at a time as best as we can.
I see your point with smaller manufacturers, but isn't it true that with a smaller company it would be unlikely that they would ever be produced on mass? To be honest, it is not money that we are concerned with; we just want the US military to have the best equipment available, and we think we have something that could give them a serious edge. As long as the Marines end up using it, we will be happy. :P

EDIT: That said though, the design would carry over perfectly into civilian rifles. :)

[Husar]

It may also be wise to make sure they can't just say "thanks for the idea, we'll try it, now bugger off" and then claim it as their own idea.
A patent would seem like the most logical choice but I have no idea whether or what that costs.
In the process of getting a patent you might also find out whether or not someone else has already had or tried the same idea.

[Vuk]

It may also be wise to make sure they can't just say "thanks for the idea, we'll try it, now bugger off" and then claim it as their own idea.
A patent would seem like the most logical choice but I have no idea whether or what that costs.
In the process of getting a patent you might also find out whether or not someone else has already had or tried the same idea.

hmmm...thanks, that is probably a good idea. Does anyone have any idea how that would be done? :P

[Vuk]

hmmm...To be honest, this doesn't fill me with confidence though. :P

[Husar]

Yeah, better hire a gunsmith and start working on your own guns!

[Vuk]

Yeah, better hire a gunsmith and start working on your own guns!

I talked to my bro about it, and we decided to just submit it without a patent. We are both planning on working for a living anyway, and our main priority is that it gets built and issued to the military. We don't have the money to invest in hiring a gunsmith to help us make it, so we really don't have a choice anyway. Ideally, that is the way we would like to go, but we cannot afford it and probably won't be able to for several years. (and by then, it could be too late)

[Crazed Rabbit]

I talked to my bro about it, and we decided to just submit it without a patent. We are both planning on working for a living anyway, and our main priority is that it gets built and issued to the military. We don't have the money to invest in hiring a gunsmith to help us make it, so we really don't have a choice anyway. Ideally, that is the way we would like to go, but we cannot afford it and probably won't be able to for several years. (and by then, it could be too late)

So what's this idea, anyways, that's so great the military will adopt it but no one's thought of before?

CR

[PershsNhpios]

Well, first of all - is it a concept for a gun, or for a rifle?

Here Mr. General sir, look at my new conshept for a gun. It has lasers, two grenade launchers and can shoot around corners. Do you like it? I drew it all in black crayon like the grown-ups.

[Vuk]

It is my brother's design primarily, and not mine to talk about. Leave the witty comments to yourself please Glenn, as they are off-topic. The thread is about how to submit a design, and what you posted has nothing to do with that.
@CR It is a modular weapons system that can be modified to fill the needs of assault rifle, sub-machine gun, PDW, light machine gun (using a slightly different open bolt design with a different feed system), and the design can also be used for sniper rifles. Right now we are concentrating on the basic assault rifle (ours is chambered for 7.62X51 NATO, but we also have the design for the same one in 5.56). As I said, it is my brother's gun, so I cannot say much about it, but it will have significantly less recoil than modern rifles, be much more compact AND have a much longer barrel, hold a potential for a far large magazine capacity, be completely ambidextrous, highly customizable, and far more convenient than either a standard stock rifle or a bull-pup.
Doubt all you want, but we have been able to test and verify almost all of that with our semi-auto prototype.

[PershsNhpios]

Holy mother of God! Look no further!

It is both much more compact AND longer! It is sub-machine gun but ALSO machine gun! It is assault rifle! But ALSO sniper rifle! It is chambered for larger cartridge - but ALSO has less recoil!

This rifle isn't just ambidextrous - it's also ambiguous!

I think I will design a modular weapons system too - I will design a plastic handle, trigger guard and modifiable butt - and this will be completely compliant with the demands of any requirement in any modern weapon!

[Vuk]

Holy mother of God! Look no further!

It is both much more compact AND longer! It is sub-machine gun but ALSO machine gun! It is assault rifle! But ALSO sniper rifle! It is chambered for larger cartridge - but ALSO has less recoil!

This rifle isn't just ambidextrous - it's also ambiguous!

I think I will design a modular weapons system too - I will design a plastic handle, trigger guard and modifiable butt - and this will be completely compliant with the demands of any requirement in any modern weapon!

lol, I thought that would get you screaming. :P No, it is not a machine gun or a sniper rifle, but ones could be built using the same basic design. And no, it is not both more compact and longer. The gun is more compact and the barrel is longer. I am sure that you can figure it out. :) And I never said that it did or didn't have less recoil than an assault rifle of another caliber. I only compared it to something of its own caliber. (it can be chambered to .308 and .223)
Are you done trolling now?

[Proletariat]

Not gonna weigh in my guess on how successful this will be, but as far as the patent stuff goes.. Just copy a bunch of photos or diagrams or whatever and mail them to yourself. Keep them sealed when it comes back to you and if you ever really need to prove it was you and your brother's idea, show the judge the post marked date and let him open it.

Also mount a sling shot on the top rail above the scope where baby octosquids can be fired from.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm pretty sure we want a special octosquid targeting system. Why, your way seems like it could be an octosquid weapon!*

As for mailing stuff, you could also email yourself some stuff, or get a notary to sign documents you've produced in regards to the weapon.

As for the rifle - well, it'd be interesting to see a working firearm. I am curious as to how it's shorter with a longer barrel yet not a bullpup (for non-gun folks; a bullpup design is where the magazine/receiver is located behind the trigger, like the current British assault rifle). As far as I know, modular (interchangeable rifle/LMG/etc) systems are already possible with bullpup designs.

CR

*Okay, maybe firing their young from guns isn't what the octosquids would do. But we must be ever-vigilant in our hunt for octosquid collaborators! I suppose, since you propose using their children as ammunition, you aren't one.

[Jaguara]

As for mailing stuff, you could also email yourself some stuff, or get a notary to sign documents you've produced in regards to the weapon.

Don't rely on e-mail, they are too easily tampered with.

[PanzerJaeger]

@CR It is a modular weapons system that can be modified to fill the needs of assault rifle, sub-machine gun, PDW, light machine gun (using a slightly different open bolt design with a different feed system), and the design can also be used for sniper rifles. Right now we are concentrating on the basic assault rifle (ours is chambered for 7.62X51 NATO, but we also have the design for the same one in 5.56). As I said, it is my brother's gun, so I cannot say much about it, but it will have significantly less recoil than modern rifles, be much more compact AND have a much longer barrel, hold a potential for a far large magazine capacity, be completely ambidextrous, highly customizable, and far more convenient than either a standard stock rifle or a bull-pup.

To be honest, that sounds like one of a dozen new weapons systems already out there from the SCAR and LMT308MWS to the XCR and ACR.

First, if you and your brother really believe you have a game-changing weapon, get it patented - and do not show it to anyone in the industry beforehand. It is noble that you want to get it in service with the military as soon as possible, but it is also stupid. Even if you gave it to Colt tomorrow, it would be years before it gets adopted.

Once you've got it patented, you really have two options. You can shop the design around to various manufacturers, or you can shop it around to various venture capitalists and build a factory yourself. The former is the far easier option, but the latter is potentially more profitable.

If you want to see the thing in military service as soon as possible, selling the patent to an established major manufacturer (Colt, FN, Beretta, etc.) is pretty much your only option. The military weighs manufacturing capacity and competency heavily in the adoption process, and never goes with small time players - even if their designs are superior.

Speaking of the adoption process, I'm afraid your new weapon will have to be more revolutionary than what you've described so far to replace the AR. There have been plenty of new designs trialed that incrementally outperform it in nearly every respect, but the military seems to be holding out for something truly game-changing (think lasers, energy pulses, or other Star Wars type stuff). The XM8 was a non-starter as well as the SCAR-L(556 version), and they've made it clear that piston-ARs won't even get serious consideration outside of SOCOM.

You should read as much as you can about Robinson Arms and their XCR. Alex Robinson designed and built an excellent modular weapon system in 2004 and has both brought it to the civilian market and military trials. The company's troubles (quality control and customer service issues on the civilian side and being passed over despite beating the competition on the military side) are a testament to the difficulty independent weapon's designers have trying to break into the market.

Good luck.

[A Nerd]

When Vuks gun concept is accepted, he is going to shave his hair into a mohawk and start threatening/challenging himself in the mirror.

[Raz]

When Vuks gun concept is accepted, he is going to shave his hair into a mohawk and start threatening/challenging himself in the mirror.

hopefully he won't be compelled to save a beautiful young prostitute armed with nothing but his designs.

[Vuk]

As for mailing stuff, you could also email yourself some stuff, or get a notary to sign documents you've produced in regards to the weapon.

As for the rifle - well, it'd be interesting to see a working firearm. I am curious as to how it's shorter with a longer barrel yet not a bullpup (for non-gun folks; a bullpup design is where the magazine/receiver is located behind the trigger, like the current British assault rifle). As far as I know, modular (interchangeable rifle/LMG/etc) systems are already possible with bullpup designs.

CR

lol, that is what I mean by revolutionary. Hopefully I can spark the curiosity of the people at FN as well. lol

To be honest, that sounds like one of a dozen new weapons systems already out there from the SCAR and LMT308MWS to the XCR and ACR.

First, if you and your brother really believe you have a game-changing weapon, get it patented - and do not show it to anyone in the industry beforehand. It is noble that you want to get it in service with the military as soon as possible, but it is also stupid. Even if you gave it to Colt tomorrow, it would be years before it gets adopted.

Once you've got it patented, you really have two options. You can shop the design around to various manufacturers, or you can shop it around to various venture capitalists and build a factory yourself. The former is the far easier option, but the latter is potentially more profitable.

If you want to see the thing in military service as soon as possible, selling the patent to an established major manufacturer (Colt, FN, Beretta, etc.) is pretty much your only option. The military weighs manufacturing capacity and competency heavily in the adoption process, and never goes with small time players - even if their designs are superior.

Speaking of the adoption process, I'm afraid your new weapon will have to be more revolutionary than what you've described so far to replace the AR. There have been plenty of new designs trialed that incrementally outperform it in nearly every respect, but the military seems to be holding out for something truly game-changing (think lasers, energy pulses, or other Star Wars type stuff). The XM8 was a non-starter as well as the SCAR-L(556 version), and they've made it clear that piston-ARs won't even get serious consideration outside of SOCOM.

You should read as much as you can about Robinson Arms and their XCR. Alex Robinson designed and built an excellent modular weapon system in 2004 and has both brought it to the civilian market and military trials. The company's troubles (quality control and customer service issues on the civilian side and being passed over despite beating the competition on the military side) are a testament to the difficulty independent weapon's designers have trying to break into the market.

Good luck.

Actually, we designed the Auto-CAD prototype with the help of one of my brother's professors at his college, and we have emails back and forth about it, but the mailing thing sounds like a good idea too.
Stupid as it may be PJ, it would not be the first time that an important invention of my family's was used without us getting any credit or money from it, so I am simply following precedent. I realize that it would take years to get one the military would accept, and that then there would be the bidding/manufacturing, etc., and that is why we want to get it off as soon as possible.
Trust me, the Vector is quite a bit more 'revolutionary' (for the lack of a better word) than the SCAR or the XM8. As I said though, it is my brother's design, so I cannot say anymore.

[gaelic cowboy]

I dont really know anything about guns but have you done any Finite Element Analysis or anything to make sure the barrel does not bend or something mental like that???

[Vuk]

I dont really know anything about guns but have you done any Finite Element Analysis or anything to make sure the barrel does not bend or something mental like that???

We are only in the conceptual stage. Engineering can happen after we are given specific requirements. Also, we have not decided on some of the smaller design points yet, (esp concerning the trigger assembly...which we have several ideas for) but the basic concept is sound.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Trust me, the Vector is quite a bit more 'revolutionary' (for the lack of a better word) than the SCAR or the XM8. As I said though, it is my brother's design, so I cannot say anymore.

Don't know what to make of the rest of the thread, but you do know there is already a Vector out there right? might wanna consider a name change. like V-Ector. or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDI_Vector

[Vuk]

Don't know what to make of the rest of the thread, but you do know there is already a Vector out there right? might wanna consider a name change. like V-Ector. or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDI_Vector

Wow, what filthy thieves! They stoled my named!