Don't Worry, Nothing important here

[HoreTore]

Well of course you didn't. I'm not going to ask you to pay reperations or even give aid just drop the high mighty "Afirca is bad because of Africans, lolz now they are coming back cuz they are being genocided." When these men were born into a violent exploitative world brought own by Euro imperialists

Strike raises a good point here, and its fascinating how its disregarded by conservatives.

Conservatives are always very fond of whining about corrupting the morals of young minds. Stuff like secularism, sex education, etc are all going to corrupt our young and lead to dystopia.

But centuries of violence and oppression? Nah, that doesn't have any impact on the minds of the young or the culture of a region.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well of course you didn't. I'm not going to ask you to pay reperations or even give aid just drop the high mighty "Afirca is bad because of Africans, lolz now they are coming back cuz they are being genocided." When these men were born into a violent exploitative world brought own by Euro imperialists

I take things as I find them, Africa is a hole now because of the way it is being run, and it is being run by Africans. I can't change the past, so I am not overly worried about it, in any case your charactarisation is crude - in many places in Africa (i.e. S. Africa) educational standards are actually falling under the post-colonial system, and law and order are deteriorating.

This particlar African president was so oppressed he went to university in Paris, but his children's generation are so free they all live in huts and are menaced by bandits.

Strike raises a good point here, and its fascinating how its disregarded by conservatives.

Conservatives are always very fond of whining about corrupting the morals of young minds. Stuff like secularism, sex education, etc are all going to corrupt our young and lead to dystopia.

But centuries of violence and oppression? Nah, that doesn't have any impact on the minds of the young or the culture of a region.

Centuries? Most brutality was after the Worls Wars when the system began to break down.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well without European intervention, Africa wouldn't exactly be a bastion of the free world. The reality is without colonization Africa would have 0 democracies today.

But this rhetoric about European's having blood on their hands, or Africans crawling back to their European masters, is pretty pointless.

Just deal with things as they are now.

[Strike For The South]

I take things as I find them, Africa is a hole now because of the way it is being run, and it is being run by Africans. I can't change the past, so I am not overly worried about it, in any case your charactarisation is crude - in many places in Africa (i.e. S. Africa) educational standards are actually falling under the post-colonial system, and law and order are deteriorating.

And you seen no correlation between that and aparthied? I'm not a big fan of the revenge tactics the ANC uses to whip up the populace but there is a reason it whips them up, there is a reason they pursue things contradictory to their own interests. It's worth noting most white south africans live out their days in the commenwealth complaining about the hellhole they created while the blacks are stuck footing the bill

A shakesperian tragedy

This particlar African president was so oppressed he went to university in Paris, but his children's generation are so free they all live in huts and are menaced by bandits

And that is why we call it exploitation old bean

Well without European intervention, Africa wouldn't exactly be a bastion of the free world. The reality is without colonization Africa would have 0 democracies today.

But this rhetoric about European's having blood on their hands, or Africans crawling back to their European masters, is pretty pointless.

Just deal with things as they are now.

And Ireland would still be a hellhole had the English not had the good sense to give it a leg up

[gaelic cowboy]

And Ireland would still be a hellhole had the English not had the good sense to give it a leg up

So would England if it wasn't for the Normans who had been made great by Louis's people and on and on and on and on till were back to Africa sometime around 8million yrs ago

[Strike For The South]

So would England if it wasn't for the Normans who had been made great by Louis's people and on and on and on and on till were back to Africa sometime around 8millionyrs ago

I was making the point that it's pointless to talk in alternate realities, unless RHY has some sort of machiene that allows to travel to them

I still <3 you

[gaelic cowboy]

I still <3 you

no bother

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And you seen no correlation between that and aparthied? I'm not a big fan of the revenge tactics the ANC uses to whip up the populace but there is a reason it whips them up, there is a reason they pursue things contradictory to their own interests. It's worth noting most white south africans live out their days in the commenwealth complaining about the hellhole they created while the blacks are stuck footing the bill

None of that is an excuse for firing all the white policemen as soon as you come into office (guess who did that), and then having their replacements outdo the enforcers of Aparteid in brutality.

Excuses matter not at all, it is no longer a white man's mess, a white man would struggle to even get elected. Isn't that the current problem with the South African opposition movement, a white woman as leader?

And Ireland would still be a hellhole had the English not had the good sense to give it a leg up

Actually, the Normans turned both England and Ireland into hellholes, but in both cases they have been sidestepped and we are doing reasonably well now, thank you.

[Tellos Athenaios]

When it comes to Sub-Saharan Africa it's really not that simple as “Europeans created a culture of at least one civil war before breakfast” or whatever dystopia you like. South Africa is the only state that didn't at one point become a total failure, mainly because the people who actually had a clue how to run a state weren't forced out of office as a result of the country being “independent”. That's what the independence meant in most of those African countries: let's boot out the state employees of the former colonists and replace one with people with less experience and sometimes without any clue whatsoever. Watch the corruption and mismanagement go rampant.

Oh and why not bring up the Apartheid and I'll raise you a Pentagon. In fact the USA was the one staunch supporter of that particular regime.

Whatever the Europeans did in those years, the Africans went on to make it a thousand times worse for themselves, and that was if they had any sense to stop before needless civil wars and military coups. There are few leaders from Africa which are seen as good, let alone great, and there are even fewer examples of thriving African economies. A major problem is the rampant corruption, for one thing. Africa used to feed itself in the 60's and export surplus food. Now it can barely manage to import enough to stave off the next famine.

So yeah the practical reality is that for a lot of Africans they were better off under the European yoke than they have been since under their own leadership. And that is saying something about how utterly appalling the African leadership has been, since we all know the European ones were no angels either.

[Rhyfelwyr]

And Ireland would still be a hellhole had the English not had the good sense to give it a leg up

Well I don't think you can compare the situation in Ireland and I would argue that it could not be called a colony. But still, yeah, Ireland has some similiarities with the colonies in that English rule still helped haul it out of the dark ages in some respects. As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of the Republic is not out in the middle of Mayo, but in the old centre of Anglo-Irish rule, Dublin, and based a fair bit on the insitutions created there as well.

[gaelic cowboy]

As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of the Republic is not out in the middle of Mayo, but in the old centre of Anglo-Irish rule, Dublin, and based a fair bit on the insitutions created there as well.

And it would not have worked if not for the fact that the civil servants using the institutions were basically were the same people who worked in them pre-independence. If London had made a distinction between Ireland and England like they did for places in Africa say back in the 19th century then it is likely we would have had poor institutions ready for use after independence.

That's why India is a sucess because there were plenty people working for the British Raj who were locals and when independence came they stayed continued in there job basically with a new colour on the post box.

[PanzerJaeger]

I've got to agree with Strike on this one. When you subjugate and exploit a group of people for generations while at the same time stripping them of their cultural institutions and then pack up and leave one day, you cannot really scoff at the chaos the void you've left has created and expect gratitude for gifting them with democracy. It's kind of like the people here in the states who say black people should be thankful to here and not in Africa.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well I don't think you can compare the situation in Ireland and I would argue that it could not be called a colony. But still, yeah, Ireland has some similiarities with the colonies in that English rule still helped haul it out of the dark ages in some respects. As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of the Republic is not out in the middle of Mayo, but in the old centre of Anglo-Irish rule, Dublin, and based a fair bit on the insitutions created there as well.

Complete rubbish. It wasn't England that hauled Ireland out of the Dark Ages, but Eire that preserved a great deal of Western philosophy and culture through the Dark Ages. You might wish to read outside your narrow sectarian bias. Dublin became important because of the Vikings, not because of the English.

gaelic cowboy is right about the institutions that existed for takeover by the Republic and the unusual relationship between Britain and Ireland that facilitated a smooth (ish) transition.

[gaelic cowboy]

Dublin became important because of the Vikings, not because of the English.

It may not have had the fame at that time of Rome or Paris but Dublin was very important trade hub in its own right any city that is around since the 7-8 century must be doing something right

[gaelic cowboy]

I take things as I find them, Africa is a hole now because of the way it is being run, and it is being run by Africans. I can't change the past, so I am not overly worried about it, in any case your charactarisation is crude - in many places in Africa (i.e. S. Africa) educational standards are actually falling under the post-colonial system, and law and order are deteriorating.

Sure of course S. African educational standards were higher back in the day when the only stats that mattered were the white ones plus the few people they used to run things for them.

The reality is Africa is a hole in a lot of places because of poverty or a lack of strong institutions, colonies are noted for not having strong local institutions as it tends to empower the locals, therefore everything is run in second gear from wherever the centre is.

Usually someone will point to places like Ireland as an example of a democratic former colony but the problem is that the institutions here were strong precisely because London made no distinction constitutionally between Swinford in Co Mayo and Swindon in Wiltshire. (there may have been a inate social bias between the two but that's a differ story)

This helped us greatly in our independence movement as London needed low to mid level civil servants from within Ireland to run the place, after we just continued on the same style of running the place and really just painted the post boxes green is all.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The reality is Africa is a hole in a lot of places because of poverty or a lack of strong institutions, colonies are noted for not having strong local institutions as it tends to empower the locals, therefore everything is run in second gear from wherever the centre is.

Usually someone will point to places like Ireland as an example of a democratic former colony but the problem is that the institutions here were strong precisely because London made no distinction constitutionally between Swinford in Co Mayo and Swindon in Wiltshire. (there may have been a inate social bias between the two but that's a differ story)

This helped us greatly in our independence movement as London needed low to mid level civil servants from within Ireland to run the place, after we just continued on the same style of running the place and really just painted the post boxes green is all.

I don't really believe this, the Colonies had strong institutions, you can see this especially in the former Idian and Asian economies, the difference was that in African the institutions were majority-run by colonists, largely because there was no educated local class to work with. Even so - men like Mandela were able to become Lawyers in South Africa and I don't believe there was a ever a "keep the darkies stupid" policy, at least not in British colonies. Rather, the focus was on Westernisation and Christianisation.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I know this BBC article looks mainly at India but we shouldn't dismiss colonialism as being all bad.

After all, it created relatively strong state institutions, a political class, introduced concepts like democracy etc.

I know I don't have a crystal ball Strike, but African states would have none of the typical preconditions for democracy without European intervention.

[Greyblades]

I dont think the policies of pre dismantlment european colonies is realy relevent, the issue here is whether we should take the responsability to aid our former dominions and try to set right the mistakes we made or just or let them sort themselves out. For the record I'd vote for the latter unless we are explicitly asked not to interfere by both loyalist and rebelion factions in these civil wars.

[gaelic cowboy]

I don't really believe this, the Colonies had strong institutions

No the colonies had strong central control thats not the same as good institiutions.

you can see this especially in the former Idian and Asian economies, the difference was that in African the institutions were majority-run by colonists, largely because there was no educated local class to work with.

you basically agreed with my point then that stronger local empowerment breeds more chance of sucess later, how long do you think these classes of people would have stayed educated if they were kept out of the political and economic system.