Don't Worry, Nothing important here

[Strike For The South]

I take things as I find them, Africa is a hole now because of the way it is being run, and it is being run by Africans. I can't change the past, so I am not overly worried about it, in any case your charactarisation is crude - in many places in Africa (i.e. S. Africa) educational standards are actually falling under the post-colonial system, and law and order are deteriorating.

And you seen no correlation between that and aparthied? I'm not a big fan of the revenge tactics the ANC uses to whip up the populace but there is a reason it whips them up, there is a reason they pursue things contradictory to their own interests. It's worth noting most white south africans live out their days in the commenwealth complaining about the hellhole they created while the blacks are stuck footing the bill

A shakesperian tragedy

This particlar African president was so oppressed he went to university in Paris, but his children's generation are so free they all live in huts and are menaced by bandits

And that is why we call it exploitation old bean

Well without European intervention, Africa wouldn't exactly be a bastion of the free world. The reality is without colonization Africa would have 0 democracies today.

But this rhetoric about European's having blood on their hands, or Africans crawling back to their European masters, is pretty pointless.

Just deal with things as they are now.

And Ireland would still be a hellhole had the English not had the good sense to give it a leg up

[gaelic cowboy]

And Ireland would still be a hellhole had the English not had the good sense to give it a leg up

So would England if it wasn't for the Normans who had been made great by Louis's people and on and on and on and on till were back to Africa sometime around 8million yrs ago

[Strike For The South]

So would England if it wasn't for the Normans who had been made great by Louis's people and on and on and on and on till were back to Africa sometime around 8millionyrs ago

I was making the point that it's pointless to talk in alternate realities, unless RHY has some sort of machiene that allows to travel to them

I still <3 you

[gaelic cowboy]

I still <3 you

no bother

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And you seen no correlation between that and aparthied? I'm not a big fan of the revenge tactics the ANC uses to whip up the populace but there is a reason it whips them up, there is a reason they pursue things contradictory to their own interests. It's worth noting most white south africans live out their days in the commenwealth complaining about the hellhole they created while the blacks are stuck footing the bill

None of that is an excuse for firing all the white policemen as soon as you come into office (guess who did that), and then having their replacements outdo the enforcers of Aparteid in brutality.

Excuses matter not at all, it is no longer a white man's mess, a white man would struggle to even get elected. Isn't that the current problem with the South African opposition movement, a white woman as leader?

And Ireland would still be a hellhole had the English not had the good sense to give it a leg up

Actually, the Normans turned both England and Ireland into hellholes, but in both cases they have been sidestepped and we are doing reasonably well now, thank you.

[Tellos Athenaios]

When it comes to Sub-Saharan Africa it's really not that simple as “Europeans created a culture of at least one civil war before breakfast” or whatever dystopia you like. South Africa is the only state that didn't at one point become a total failure, mainly because the people who actually had a clue how to run a state weren't forced out of office as a result of the country being “independent”. That's what the independence meant in most of those African countries: let's boot out the state employees of the former colonists and replace one with people with less experience and sometimes without any clue whatsoever. Watch the corruption and mismanagement go rampant.

Oh and why not bring up the Apartheid and I'll raise you a Pentagon. In fact the USA was the one staunch supporter of that particular regime.

Whatever the Europeans did in those years, the Africans went on to make it a thousand times worse for themselves, and that was if they had any sense to stop before needless civil wars and military coups. There are few leaders from Africa which are seen as good, let alone great, and there are even fewer examples of thriving African economies. A major problem is the rampant corruption, for one thing. Africa used to feed itself in the 60's and export surplus food. Now it can barely manage to import enough to stave off the next famine.

So yeah the practical reality is that for a lot of Africans they were better off under the European yoke than they have been since under their own leadership. And that is saying something about how utterly appalling the African leadership has been, since we all know the European ones were no angels either.

[Rhyfelwyr]

And Ireland would still be a hellhole had the English not had the good sense to give it a leg up

Well I don't think you can compare the situation in Ireland and I would argue that it could not be called a colony. But still, yeah, Ireland has some similiarities with the colonies in that English rule still helped haul it out of the dark ages in some respects. As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of the Republic is not out in the middle of Mayo, but in the old centre of Anglo-Irish rule, Dublin, and based a fair bit on the insitutions created there as well.

[gaelic cowboy]

As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of the Republic is not out in the middle of Mayo, but in the old centre of Anglo-Irish rule, Dublin, and based a fair bit on the insitutions created there as well.

And it would not have worked if not for the fact that the civil servants using the institutions were basically were the same people who worked in them pre-independence. If London had made a distinction between Ireland and England like they did for places in Africa say back in the 19th century then it is likely we would have had poor institutions ready for use after independence.

That's why India is a sucess because there were plenty people working for the British Raj who were locals and when independence came they stayed continued in there job basically with a new colour on the post box.

[PanzerJaeger]

I've got to agree with Strike on this one. When you subjugate and exploit a group of people for generations while at the same time stripping them of their cultural institutions and then pack up and leave one day, you cannot really scoff at the chaos the void you've left has created and expect gratitude for gifting them with democracy. It's kind of like the people here in the states who say black people should be thankful to here and not in Africa.

[HoreTore]

I've got to agree with Strike on this one. When you subjugate and exploit a group of people for generations while at the same time stripping them of their cultural institutions and then pack up and leave one day, you cannot really scoff at the chaos the void you've left has created and expect gratitude for gifting them with democracy. It's kind of like the people here in the states who say black people should be thankful to here and not in Africa.

Another point would be the borders.

In Africa, they're not natural or decided by those who live there. The tension between france and germany lead to two world wars, imagine if someone decided to make a state out of western germany and eastern france.... Of course there would be civil war. Like we see in Africa.

[Strike For The South]

Another point would be the borders.

In Africa, they're not natural or decided by those who live there. The tension between france and germany lead to two world wars, imagine if someone decided to make a state out of western germany and eastern france.... Of course there would be civil war. Like we see in Africa.

Don't be an idoit, everyone knows the only ethnic group below the Shara is black

And of course God fearing white SAfricans who are being slaughtered by the blacks whom they gave a guiding Chrisitian hand to all those years, making sure their little brains wouldn't be to overwhelmed by the white mans learning and ways

Most unereving if I do say so myself

I'm fully aware there is basically nothing yall can do to right these wrongs now but in the same vein, dont piss on my boots and tell me its raining

[Jaguara]

Don't be an idoit, everyone knows the only ethnic group below the Shara is black

And the only Ethnic group in Europe is white? And the only ethnic groups in Asia are brown (Indian/Nepalese/Pakistani) or yellow (Chinese, Japanese, Mongolian, etc)?

The fact is that there are many different ethnic groups throughout Africa. Only outside of Africa are blacks seen as a single group.

(Do not interpret this comment as an implied support for any other aspect of this discussion)

[Ironside]

Another point would be the borders.

In Africa, they're not natural or decided by those who live there. The tension between france and germany lead to two world wars, imagine if someone decided to make a state out of western germany and eastern france.... Of course there would be civil war. Like we see in Africa.

Bonus point is that a common colonialist practice was to enforce a minority as the local ruling class (presumably to control it better). No social tension at all because of this... Tutsi and Tamils is examples that I know of.

[Skullheadhq]

Bonus point is that a common colonialist practice was to enforce a minority as the local ruling class (presumably to control it better). No social tension at all because of this... Tutsi and Tamils is examples that I know of.

You're just jealous because Sweden dind't have a colony after 1905.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well I don't think you can compare the situation in Ireland and I would argue that it could not be called a colony. But still, yeah, Ireland has some similiarities with the colonies in that English rule still helped haul it out of the dark ages in some respects. As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of the Republic is not out in the middle of Mayo, but in the old centre of Anglo-Irish rule, Dublin, and based a fair bit on the insitutions created there as well.

Complete rubbish. It wasn't England that hauled Ireland out of the Dark Ages, but Eire that preserved a great deal of Western philosophy and culture through the Dark Ages. You might wish to read outside your narrow sectarian bias. Dublin became important because of the Vikings, not because of the English.

gaelic cowboy is right about the institutions that existed for takeover by the Republic and the unusual relationship between Britain and Ireland that facilitated a smooth (ish) transition.

[gaelic cowboy]

Dublin became important because of the Vikings, not because of the English.

It may not have had the fame at that time of Rome or Paris but Dublin was very important trade hub in its own right any city that is around since the 7-8 century must be doing something right

[Louis VI the Fat]

It is Ireland which saved West European civilisation during the Dark Ages.

It is England whose intitutes were established by foreign conquerors, hauling it out of the Dark Ages. As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of England is not out in the middle of Yorkshire, but in London at the southwestern extremity, close to the continent from where Celts, Romans, Normans/French brought conquest, colonisation and culture.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It is England whose intitutes were established by foreign conquerors, hauling it out of the Dark Ages. As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of England is not out in the middle of Yorkshire, but in London at the southwestern extremity, close to the continent from where Celts, Romans, Normans/French brought conquest, colonisation and culture.

To be fair, Anglo-Saxon institutions were considerably more advanced than continental ones at the time of the Conquest - especially in terms of law, commerce and citizens' rights. England was a very rich prize. Yorkshire was actually Danish held from much of the Dark Ages - 'twas Winchester that should have been (and was) the capital of England.

[Slyspy]

Is there a parallel between Africa today and Britain once the legions had left? If so history suggests that the locals should just be left to themselves, slaughtering and being slaughtered, until someone from outside comes in and stabilises things by gobbling it all up.

[gaelic cowboy]

It is England whose intitutes were established by foreign conquerors, hauling it out of the Dark Ages. As can be testified to by the fact that the heart of England is not out in the middle of Yorkshire, but in London at the southwestern extremity, close to the continent from where Celts, Romans, Normans/French brought conquest, colonisation and culture.

To be fair whoever held Britain would have used London as the capital eventually there was a river useful for both defense and trade plus it was close to rich farmland further south and add in easy access to the North Sea and English Channel. The only other place suitable would be on the Severn but it faces the wrong way for trade from Europe, cities are rarely built purely for administration purposes and when they are they generally are pretty antiseptic.

[Skullheadhq]

Nobody thought of re-colonisation? Better for us, better for them, we could be more humane this time.

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