New Player with Economy/Build Order Questions!

[Leptomeninges]

Hello Folks,

Long time gamer here who dabbled in the Total War series in the past (primarily the Rome version.) The Civ series was always more my cup of tea, but given the terrible state that CivV is in compared with the relative polish of Shogun2, I'm spending more of my time in feudal Japan. To give you an idea of my general progress with the game, I've had the game for about a week and won a normal/short campaign as Shimazu, but suspect I'm losing my current campaign on Shimazu hard/long although the jury is still out.

I've read several threads on these forums and a few others about building priority and synergy. Looking for more information or references. Specifically, I've read things like:

- Farms are your first and most important economic upgrade priority.
- Never expand your castle just to build a market.
- Upgrading your market to rice exchange is usually a bad idea.

Curious if everyone agrees. I'm looking for more similar tips on synergistic buildings to put in the same castle. For instance, what's the ideal city to put a Sake Den? Does it matter? If I have an open slot in a newly conquered city (and don't need anything particularly) what should I put in the open spot? Does anyone want to take a stab at weighing the benefits of a market versus the tech from a temple? Are the tech benefits from the temple/monestary line of buildings additive or multiplicative with a library? Is it worth expanding a castle to put a temple in a province with a library? At what point (from an economic perspective) should I be thinking about investing in my roads?

I'm aware of my general ignorance of this game and may not be asking the right questions so any advice is welcome.

Thanks!

[Monk]

Welcome to the org Leptomeninges!

We had a great discussion going last week on this very issue in this thread. From about post 16 onward the discussion, led by MCM, helped shed some light on some of the basic aspects of the economic game. I highly recommend giving it a look.

Personally I find that markets are a must have in the early game and only have one or two "military" towns that pump out my samurai units, but overall castles are just too expensive in the first turns for my tastes. I don't even think about upgrading a castle until i've secured my starting position and am nearing 4-5 provinces. Anything before that, i feel like i'm wasting money.

[HopAlongBunny]

This is my (likely mistaken) take on things.

The specific upgrades you mention all consume food; food contributes to growth (clan-wide) and rarely is the boost in income a market provides worth the growth hit.

Exceptions might be a very rich or troublesome province; in both cases the market is nice but its the Metsuke you really want.

I have no clue about the synergies involved with combining temples/libraries and the like. I follow the "If I have cash to burn, build it" philosophy. This is probably sub-optimal; when realm divide hits all those koku you spent on something other than units could come back to haunt you.

I don't know if the mechanics in this game are as transparent as RTW. The econ guides for that game were as about as thorough as you are ever likely to see.

[MCM]

I also got Shogun 2 after becoming disillusioned with Civ 5, after swearing I'd never play another Total War after Empire. (heh)

edit: whoops, hit post too fast.

Curious if everyone agrees. I'm looking for more similar tips on synergistic buildings to put in the same castle. For instance, what's the ideal city to put a Sake Den? Does it matter? If I have an open slot in a newly conquered city (and don't need anything particularly) what should I put in the open spot? Does anyone want to take a stab at weighing the benefits of a market versus the tech from a temple? Are the tech benefits from the temple/monestary line of buildings additive or multiplicative with a library? Is it worth expanding a castle to put a temple in a province with a library? At what point (from an economic perspective) should I be thinking about investing in my roads?

Well, there's a few different province scenarios you generally run into.

Sake Dens - actually one of the best building chains, because of the +wealth (though it does take a long time to pay for itself), but also the +happiness. The top-end of the Sake Den chain has one of the best money producing buildings, but you can only build one (the Infamous Mizo Subai District (sp)). You'll want one of these in your best money district, with either a gold mine resource or the "philosophical tradition" resource. The tax boost from the IMSD is huge, so it probably make it worth it to expand the castle just to get this. Also probably worth it to put a top-end market chain here. Also, if possible, stack a Nanban Trade Quarter here too - that's another massive town boost. (You can hold down the Christians with some ashigaru garrisons - it's worth that much. Also because of access to Nanban Trade Ships).

I wouldn't expand a castle to build a sake den otherwise (unless we're talking about the special ninja resource provinces). It can be useful for happiness like I mentioned above, but that's a question of paying for happiness, not expanding your econ. If it's really just a single-slot province in the middle of nowhere, market is more worthwhile. However, you are going to want 5 sake dens SOMEWHERE to get 5 ninjas (1 per sake den, hard cap of 5).

Markets are you bread and butter building to put in a single-slot province. If you capture a province from the AI, and it's got 1 slot taken up by, say, a Yari Drill Yard, just tear it down and build a Market (assuming you don't need a Yari Drill Yard for some reason).

The tech upgrades just aren't that good, because it takes so many of them with such a huge combined construction cost to get you anywhere. Sad to say but there's really only a few key techs in Shogun 2 and it's not hard to get most of them with few upgrades or bonuses. The bonuses are all additive. (two provinces with +3% = 6% bonus). Heaven and Earth is probably one of the few arts I consider "mandatory", and maybe ninjutsu mastery.

As for roads, I'd only invest in them in physically large provinces. The econ bonuses are minuscule compared to the costs. The replenishment bonus is one thing, but that's really only viable for a crossroads province. Roads are good for really, really large provinces, like the northeast or possibly Kyushu (the westernmost island).

[Leptomeninges]

Thanks all for the replies. It's much appreciated. I was starting to get the idea that (unlike Civ) tech is less important in Shogun, and I appreciate the comment on fewer mandatory techs. Does happiness have any benefit (economic or otherwise) aside from preventing revolts? Apologies for my ignorance!

[Monk]

Thanks all for the replies. It's much appreciated. I was starting to get the idea that (unlike Civ) tech is less important in Shogun, and I appreciate the comment on fewer mandatory techs. Does happiness have any benefit (economic or otherwise) aside from preventing revolts? Apologies for my ignorance!

I'm not sure about direct increases to your income but, obviously, the higher your happiness the higher you can crank up the taxes in the finance screen.

[Zarky]

I personally am a sucker for roads. Moving fast through my territories is a key factor in my success, as I send reinforcements from behind the lines from my good recruitment centers. This of course is slightly obsolete if you rely on your navy to do your transporting.

I start using sake dens more as I get more territories, being able to leave a province to exploit enemy weakness without having to exempt taxes from previously captured province or worrying about revolts is a great thing. But if you decide to invest some money in sake dens, researching the 1st ninja tech that allows you to build the next level in the building line is couple turns well spent.

[Rothe]

I'm not sure about direct increases to your income but, obviously, the higher your happiness the higher you can crank up the taxes in the finance screen.

Still, I think the max reasonable target is the "normal level" of tax. After that, it just starts to be too much unrest to keep up with, even with tech and building upgrades. You are still likely to have provinces with very minimal upgrades and very little reason to invest or to garrison in the mid to late game - it is better if they keep content with a temple IMO.

Overall, I think the tactic that seems to work really well is to try and grow your food surplus if you can. Only build what you really need and what the OP said about the market chain is true. Some people startplaying with a zero food situation in mind and they quickly find that it leads to big trouble when you go beyond the realm divide - the AI does not max out farms, but it may build big castles. That is why it is better to always have surplus, so wehn you conquer you never go into negatives and have time to build up the farms. Also, the growth explodes when you start having 20+ provinces and 25+ surplus. In my Chosokabe campaign my tax collection goes up by around 800 koku every year (29 provinces x 30 surplus x 0.2 tax, plus the metsuke), which means that I can recruit a samurai unit every turn to my already powerful armies (I have 3-4 mainly samurai stacks and some defensive ones).

[Leptomeninges]

I started another hard/Shimazu game last night and was struck by how differently the campaign can play out with the same faction, difficulty, and strategy. In my first hard playthrough both the Shoni and Sargera dogpiled me early requiring a long slog to conquer the island. In my most recent campaign (with no significant change in my strategy) Shoni decided to head for the mainland and left Sargera alone without joining the war against me. After conquering Sargera I essentially had a cakewalk through the Shoni provinces as they were tied up on the mainland.

In other games you have several turns to "set up" your strat. In Shogun2, the AI is on you very quickly (immediately?) and often unpredictably. Given that (in my limited experience) the most critical portion of the game is the first fifteen or so turns, this means that every playthrough will be a dramatically different experience. But it also means that not all victories at a given difficulty level are created equal. Some high difficulty victories may ultimately be easier wins than lower difficulty wins because of the decisions the AI makes early on.

Also, unless I'm misunderstanding something, there seems to be an exploit where you can arrange marraiges before your sons are "of age" essentially an unlimited number of times. This gives both diplomatic bonuses and you can also sometimes get gold for it. The eligible bride or groom for the opposing faction seems to be consumed, but your ability to continue marrying off your underage sons is not.

edit: Since I'm new on these forums, let me be clear that I don't endorse exploits. But I do find that people are interested in knowing where the game may be broken.

[MCM]

I start using sake dens more as I get more territories, being able to leave a province to exploit enemy weakness without having to exempt taxes from previously captured province or worrying about revolts is a great thing. But if you decide to invest some money in sake dens, researching the 1st ninja tech that allows you to build the next level in the building line is couple turns well spent.

It's worth pointing out here, though, is that 2xyari ashigaru+Market might be a better option than Sake Den, assuming this is just a Fort province (ie, single building slot), since the Market produces more than twice as much money as the Sake Den, and still more than a Gambling Den.

I forget the base upkeep on Yari Ashigaru, but I think it's something like 20 each?, reduced by a few % here and there.

[hamysho]

I'm not sure if it was stated previously in this thread but tax not only effects happiness but taxes penalize town growth as well. The higher the tax rate, the higher the penalities to happiness and growth. This penalty seems to grow expontentially after the normal tax rate. So, in the long run, you're better off running a lower tax rate to maximize growth.

However I'm running a normal rate for the first part of the game because I need the cash to build markets and trading posts and the overall hit to wealth is small because of your limited amount of cities. And money now is better than money later. =)

[hamysho]

You can also manipulate the diplomacy system by selling of Military Access for koku, if you need the extra cash and don't mind exploiting...

[Zarky]

I forget the base upkeep on Yari Ashigaru, but I think it's something like 20 each?, reduced by a few % here and there.

It's more like +70...Then reduced by a few %. You'd need pretty high tax rate to not lose money on that. Of course in the long run market nets you town growth, but the whole point of my sake den strategy is for when you're rushing forward, which you shouldn't do unless you're past Realm Divide (aside from irresistible opportunities).

[andrewt]

Unless you're losing a lot of battles, you really want to specialize your building upgrades to provinces with weaponsmiths. Early game, you're going to be fielding mostly ashigaru armies anyway and by the midgame, you should have a weaponsmith province with your favorite encampment upgrade. Then have an artisan province for archers if you can. Everything else can be for economic/tech purposes.

I had different provinces specialize in my current first game. By the time I captured a weaponsmith/artisan province, I never built any samurai outside of those type of provinces.

[Gregoshi]

edit: Since I'm new on these forums, let me be clear that I don't endorse exploits. But I do find that people are interested in knowing where the game may be broken.

Hello Leptomeninges and welcome to the Org.

[Rothe]

I'm not sure if it was stated previously in this thread but tax not only effects happiness but taxes penalize town growth as well. The higher the tax rate, the higher the penalities to happiness and growth. This penalty seems to grow expontentially after the normal tax rate. So, in the long run, you're better off running a lower tax rate to maximize growth.

However I'm running a normal rate for the first part of the game because I need the cash to build markets and trading posts and the overall hit to wealth is small because of your limited amount of cities. And money now is better than money later. =)

I doubt that the lost 10% of all your wealth per turn is worth the +4? growth. I tried this but it does not seem viable - I need the cash and if I get it sooner, I can build faster.

I really hope the economics screen would show your total wealth and total growth. It would help to make projections for the future for things exactly like this.

[hamysho]

Well over however many turns you have left, that +4 growth per town would be more valuable in the long run because you get that 4 koku each turn . Running a lower tax rate is like investing.

But ofcourse growth is more valuable the more cities you have. I haven't thought about a 'tipping point' where running a normal tax rate is better than running a lower tax rate for the growth. But if you need to run a normal tax rate or get crushed by the ai, you run the higher tax rate. If you don't need the koku, lower your taxes. Koku sitting in the bank is useless.

Does anyone know if 'Automanage my taxes' will vary your tax rate per province dependant on happiness? It would be neat if you could vary your tax rate based on province so you could gouge your gold mine province while running a low tax rate for growth in all your other provinces.

[MCM]

Well over however many turns you have left, that +4 growth per town would be more valuable in the long run because you get that 4 koku each turn

No, this is a big misconception. Town wealth is not money. It's taxed, so it's (tax rate) * +4 every turn.

But ofcourse growth is more valuable the more cities you have. I haven't thought about a 'tipping point' where running a normal tax rate is better than running a lower tax rate for the growth. But if you need to run a normal tax rate or get crushed by the ai, you run the higher tax rate. If you don't need the koku, lower your taxes. Koku sitting in the bank is useless.

But the problem is that the game is just not very long. If you're actually playing to win the campaign, you're talking about something between 40 and 200 turns. It takes a really long time for growth and investments to pay off.

Koku sitting in the bank isn't useless. It's money you can spend on all kinds of things. :)

Does anyone know if 'Automanage my taxes' will vary your tax rate per province dependant on happiness? It would be neat if you could vary your tax rate based on province so you could gouge your gold mine province while running a low tax rate for growth in all your other provinces.

No, it doesn't work.

[Rothe]

I agree. The game is not long enough to make it viable to lower tax. You might run into a tipping over point late in teh game and have it make no difference - you'd have done better to get the money sooner and win sooner.

The problem is that 4 growth = about 0.8 - 1 koku per turn per city. The 10% is around 1/3 of the normal tax, which to me says something like 200+ per turn (600 taxed at normal rate is a low'ish amount in mid game, at low rate it would be about 400). You'd have to save up for quite a long time to make the gains equal. The problem would also be that your high wealth towns still also would have the low tax rate, and some of my provinces in late game have 5000 - 6000 wealth, giving me income of 2000 per town or so with Metsuke.

[Daveybaby]

I'm starting to come to this conclusion myself. This is not RTW or M2TW, the growth from lowering taxes just doesnt seem to make enough difference throughout the course of the game to justify the (often crippling) immediate income hit. It's especially difficult to justify since it's a clan wide tax setting in S2, and even if you did keep taxes low right from the beginning (when it might make a difference over time) that's only going to benefit the provinces you have at the beginning - not any provinces you take 20, 50 or 100 turns down the line.