EB is not Historical?

[Brennus]

fomalhaut I'm very sorry for the fact that these topics were very controversial for as you see I am very quite new here.

And your very welcome!

Btw, do you know what the Occultus faction represents, we don't have a clue.

[The_Blacksmith]

fomalhaut I'm very sorry for the fact that these topics were very controversial for as you see I am very quite new here.

Its okay, i was quite confused when i started playing EB, but the over-hand under-hand thing IMHO is a question of where the hoplite is from, for example: the Syracusian hoplites fought in loose formations and that favours the underhand thrust where the interlocked "shieldwall" of main greece favours the overhand

[Rahwana]

just calm down and take your seat

[Skullheadhq]

I came, I saw, I lol'ed

[Atraphoenix]

I came, I saw, I lol'ed

I just stopped reading after seeing lorica......

[Duguntz]

I just stopped reading after seeing lorica......

Well, it could've been Lorica Hamata :)))

[jirisys]

I just stopped reading after seeing lorica......

I stopped when it said "vanilla was right on this one".

~Jirisys ()

[Ludens]

Yes, it's been made sufficiently clear that the OP did not make a good impression. Can we move on?

Ludens, what I think annoys many here is that people bump in here with a bunch of lukewarm facts and claim that they know more than the EB-Team or the community(as it apparently has not pointed that out before. And most importantly they don't go into an existing thread and argue with the others or they first read existing threads, they open up a new thread and claim their ideas are absolute and that it has to be changed, not a suggestion, a demand. at least that is waht angers me every time I read one of these posts. As I'm not part of the EB team I'm not as enraged as when it'd be MY mod/share of the research.
from a mod I worked on I remember people always comeing up with how wrong my ancient greek would be as I write Oxybeles instead of Oxyvelis and so on. or that my research was not conform with the discriptions from Age of Empires: Mythologies(the DS tough version).

Understood, and I agree. But what Bobbin says is true as well. We all start with misconceptions about history, and because we know so little about it we assume them to be solid truth. Of course, if you're not familiar with a topic, it's best to ask rather than assume you know better. But it's a quirk of human nature that the less we know, the more we think we know. Check out the Dunning–Kruger effect for the extreme version of this.

[Arjos]

I agree on that, but so many people just ignoring sticked posts is soooooooo annoying...

[fomalhaut]

it's due to the large number of stickied posts, reducing the value of each one. one or two sticked posts would make each much more important and much less to read, rather than 1/4 the page like we have here.

[jirisys]

But it's a quirk of human nature that the less we know, the more we think we know. Check out the Dunning–Kruger effect for the extreme version of this.

Heh heh... I have that!

~Jirisys ()

[fomalhaut]

then you must be american ^_^

[Ca Putt]

ha, thanks ludens! I'll going to use word a lot :)))))))

and yes I do agree with bobbin aswell :)

[jirisys]

then you must be american ^_^

No, I'm just smawt.

~Jirisys ()

[Julianus]

I believe overhand thrust makes more sense in an interlocked shieldwall formation, which is more prevalent in Hellenic world, but then I'm not so sure how to explain the fact that most wounds suffered in hoplite battles were in the thighs which I read in quite a few books. I mean, how could you strike at the other guy's thighs which are under his aspis with your spear-hand above your own aspis?

[fomalhaut]

explained easily; what's the best place to make sure someone who is running away (with all their fancy equipment to take for yourself) can't get back up? stab them in the leg.

most casualities took place during the rout, and the thigh is a big juicy target for ending someones combat effectiveness and their ability to keep running away.

[moonburn]

well i´m a big defender of push them make them fall and them trample them and since they had a helmet and a shield to protect their body ... as someone stated there´s plenty of evidences of many shields with marks resembling the counterbalance part of a spear meaning they got rustled down and then beaten up nicely phalanx style

[Julianus]

Admittedly, when you pursuit some one in full flight, it's only natural to stab him in the thigh, especially if he happens to wear a bronze cuirass. But then the wound would be in the back of the thighs, while I'm under the impression that many wounds were in the front of the thighs, inflicted in toe-to-toe combat. I could be wrong, as I can't check it since I don't have any book by hand. But there's one instance I'm fairly certain, that Archidamos, the Spartan king, was seriously wounded in one thigh ( in fact that thigh got run through by a spear ), while he was receiving a furious charge of the Arcadians in the first rank of Spartan phalanx. Perhaps this suggests that in a charge the phalanx would employ a looser formation and charge with their spears holding at waist level, I imagine it would be easier to keep your balance while running and generate more momentum this way, maybe some reenactors have tested it?

[bobbin]

I've read an explanation saying that because the kings fought on the right of the phalanx, he could have been on the edge of the phalanx and therefore not had any cover to one half of his body, thus allowing someone a clear shot at his leg.
I'm not entirely convinced by it I'd have to say though.

To be honest I've never heard of thigh wounds being the most common injury, but I imagine people receiving them wouldn't be a sign of a certain fighting style, it's more likely the result of the phalanx being disrupted and someone getting a lucky shot past the shields, it's not like the phalanx was always preformed completely flawlessly.

[TotalWarlord]

Well in a reading all comments in this thread I have concluded that:

1. In times of battle a Spartan was fighting an enemy, mostly almost as eager to end his life that he cared little about wether he was striking above or below his shield. In close combat however a spear was at a disadvantage due to its immobility, years of training would have probably taught the Spartan to draw a sword.

2. Though I was right in the fact that the lorica segmentata was indeed in the time zone of Europa Barbarorum. It is true that it is pointless to make an entire unit that spans only 30 to 40 years. Also the fact that it wasn't the main armor for legionaires in this time period.

Thanks to the people who enlightened me.

[Vaginacles]

K guys lets not try to troll this person again.

[fomalhaut]

EB isn't historical because the Spartan's didn't break phalanx to do slow motion killing sprees. Sorry just watched that film last night ^_^

[TotalWarlord]

EB isn't historical because the Spartan's didn't break phalanx to do slow motion killing sprees. Sorry just watched that film last night ^_^

Zack Snyder's hunky depiction of the 300 Spartans?

[fomalhaut]

Yes and it's laughable innacuracies and offensive aspects have been discussed to death, but the film really does have some great great visuals and editing. the talk about Spartan's defending freedom, logic and democracy was kind of funny though. oh and the whole focus of the phalanx as a single unit without a weak spot being the basis of excluding the invalid never held any weight! since they never formed a phalanx in the first place. oh well :P

its still just a fun movie about die ubermensch defending the white race from the oppressive homosexuals, blacks, asians and arabs. Going so far so to literally have the Immortals as soulless monsters hahaha ^_^

[Skullheadhq]

its still just a fun movie about die ubermensch defending the white race from the oppressive homosexuals, blacks, asians and arabs. Going so far so to literally have the Immortals as soulless monsters hahaha ^_^

That's an uhm... interesting interpretation.

[fomalhaut]

That's an uhm... interesting interpretation.

i'd say that one holds the most weight out of any that could be. Miller is widely accepted to be a racist. watch the film or read the novel again and that's literally what it is; perfect white men against-

Xerxe's, a very effiminite, piercing filled man. implied to be homosexual or at least bisexual
Immortals - Asian monster men
Arabs, Blacks and Asians are throwaway bad guys, probably slaves. There are no white or mediteranean people in this army. Surely the large levys from Asia Minor would involve many 'white' men, Frank surely knew this, yet instead portrayed this evil empire of slaves as one purely of color run by a gay man of color.

also, Athenians are insulted as "philosophers" so a tinge of anti intellectualism is revealed

and how do the ubermensch finally fail their valiant stand against other races? the invalid reveals the goat path


there is a reason this movie fell in so well with white males 16-25 in my region (SW U.S.A.), because it reinforced, even subconsciously, racial identity of whites during a time when illegal immigration was THE issue and white identity felt very threatened.

[Fluvius Camillus]

@formalhaut

The movie is just meant as an action movie, it really surprises me how many people find messages in things like these. The message, as Leonidas in the movie states, is about the portrayal of few against many. Free people versus the oppressors. People who come to this movie want to see people kill each other. They want excitement and entertainment.

The average person who watched this gave NOTHING about the portrayal and representation about the various ethnicities from the vast empire. They want to see their stereotypical views battle each other. A Spartan is a white man with a beard, a Persian is a Persian (and some compare a Persian to an Arab in their view). Going on with stereotypes, calling the Athenians philosophers is not an assault on intellectualism it is simply stereotypical name-calling at what the place is known for. Which has been common and still is so until this day. Arabs have beards, French are snail and baguette eating Beret wearing moustachemen. Russians are drunk on vodka. I certainly don't try to offend people, it is just an example of raw stereotypes worldwide.

We have to make a second Godwin law by the way. Every discussion about historical correctness will spin down into a debate how bad 300 portrayed ancient persia.

~Fluvius

[bobbin]

formalhaut's criticisms are more applicable to the comic as the film is basically just a frame for frame copy, but he is right about one thing, Frank Miller is well known for having "issues", particularly with Muslims and women.

But this talk isn't really for this thread or even the EB forums, discuss it somewhere else or over PM's please.

[A_Dane]

I almost choked in my drink, reading the OP. Thought he was actually joking, as it's the 2 subjects I've seen discussed here the most xD

[athanaric]

formalhaut's criticisms are more applicable to the comic as the film is basically just a frame for frame copy, but he is right about one thing, Frank Miller is well known for having "issues", particularly with Muslims and women.

Persians != Muslims