EB is not Historical?

[TotalWarlord]

EB is the best mod I have encountered. Best graphics, awesome trivia, cool voice acting, and the thing that separates EB from others: Historical Accuracy.
However I noticed that there were some misconceptions that I found while playing the game.

1.Greek Hoplites - The phalanx is a rectangular mass military formation, usually composed entirely of heavy infantry armed with spears, pikes, or similar weapons. The troops were disciplined to hold a line which created a nearly impenetrable forest of points to the front. EB's depiction of the phalanx at first seemed correct(after all they did a very good job with the Spartiates), but it was when they fought that I was terribly disappointed. The phalanx held a solid block of men unstoppable if fought from the front. Rome:Total War vanilla was right on this one, EB however portrayed the hoplites fighting with their spears thrust overhand as if throwing a javelin. This made them look like gay freaks. WTF!

2.Roman Cohort - The lorica segmentata(plate mail) was used between 1st Century BC until 3rd Century AD. EB spans 272 BC until 14 AD but i wonder why they didn't put a unit that used the armor. The testudo was also removed(I wonder if this is a bug but my praetorians didn't do the famed formation when I pressed "F".

I think those are all the misconcepcions I have found and I hope the EB staff would take notice of this and make a patch 1.3 to correct their mistakes. Anyway thanks to the EB Team for their pains while making such a great mod and for fixing my RTW(Another mod destroyed my vanilla and in installing EB I was able to play as Rome again).

[fomalhaut]

oh my lord you don't know what you just started!!!! you just mentioned lorica segmentata as something in widespread use and contested that overhand spear thrusts were not used by hoplites, even calling them gay freaks!

and i think you have a misconception between the phalangites and the hoplite phalanx, one is a shield wall the other is a spear wall. the overhand/underhand spear thrust has been debated ad nauseum, with overhand always coming out on top. It's in my opinion that both were used whenever the tactical situation presented the needed for either/or but overhand was more dominant.

if you are going to even try and contest these assertions then you are going to need some sources, lots of them. i don't even think anyone from EB itself will come in here to assault you with writing and excerpts

[Taedius]

First post. Two points, both heavily discussed on the forum, one of them recently. I don't want to jump to conclutions, and if I'm wrong, I do appologise, hoping the OP will understand that his points tends to stir reactions here, but: Is this for real?

Edit: If I'm wrong, the OP might want to read the FAQ about the Lorica Segmentata:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...Barbarorum-FAQ

And for a discussion on the Hoplite use of spears, see here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-Pushing-Match

And yes, as fomalhaut says, don't mistake Hoplites for Phalangites.

[fomalhaut]

i almost thought that as well. i was sure to read read read these discussions before i ever chimed in

[gamegeek2]

You're very luck this was your first post here, otherwise we'd probably call you out as a troll.

[Ibrahim]

You're very luck this was your first post here, otherwise we'd probably call you out as a troll.

why have mercy? just assume he's one, and deal with him. he's the guy who was careless enough to not read the FAQ before typing.

ok, in all seriousness, I don't think we should treat him as a troll, but I think he could have just read the darn thing.

[Arjos]

Bah, speechless

[antisocialmunky]

You're very luck this was your first post here, otherwise we'd probably call you out as a troll.

... its a troll account.

[Mulceber]

1. Someone else could probably answer this one better than me, but iirc, overhand and underhand are both accurate, depending on the style of phalanx warfare. Classical greek hoplites fought overhand. The Macedonian/Hellenistic style phalanx was underhand.

2. In every source I've seen, Lorica Segmentata was used from the first century AD to the third. Outside of EB's time frame. Re: the testudo, my copy of EB does have testudo formation, although it depends on what Roman infantry you're using. If you're using anything from before the Marian reforms. I'm pretty sure it's only Marian and Imperial infantry that can make the turtle. That's because we only have a couple of sources that describe this tactic, and they're all from no earlier than the late republic. -M

[Vaginacles]

EB not historical?

what the @%#*

[Duguntz]

Alas... another Lorica Seg. Fan... The Lorica was indeed used from the 1st century BC. But from the END of it! It's completly useless to create a whole new unit with lorica segmentata for 30 - 40 years of game. as the game ends in 14 AD. and here's a friendly advice :Do not never EVER ask about the lorica segmentata here. And stating EB isn't historical (try not to be too rough...) it's kinda (common find a word...)BOLD statement! as it EB has been desing by teams within which are many historians! (Without even mentioning us all history freaks that have not too many things betetr to to than open a new history book when we finish the preceeding one!)

[Dutchhoplite]

[Ca Putt]

haha the only thing he forgot is asking for a release date for EBII :D

oh and demanding latin names for things not latin ^^

[Ludens]

Could we please stop treating anyone who brings up a controversial topic as a potential troll? This is a good way of ensuring the topic stays controversial.

TotalWarlord's arguments have indeed been hotly debated before, but that is because many people have heard only one side of the story. So yes, it's quite possible that a new member is not aware of this, especially if he didn't check out the FAQ. Shouting "OMG, how can you not know?!" at him will not convince him you are right.

1. Someone else could probably answer this one better than me, but iirc, overhand and underhand are both accurate, depending on the style of phalanx warfare. Classical greek hoplites fought overhand. The Macedonian/Hellenistic style phalanx was underhand.

2. In every source I've seen, Lorica Segmentata was used from the first century AD to the third. Outside of EB's time frame.

Just a few nitpicks:

1) It probably wasn't as absolute as this: both high and low styles are feasible with sarissa's and dory's, depending on what the situation requires. Swiss pikemen had a stance where they held their pikes at shoulder height (the phalangite shield useless in this stance, so Hellenic pikemen probably didn't use this). Underhand spear-fighting can make sense for hoplites too, say in one-on-one combat. The team went with overhand style since this is used on most Classical depictions, and seems suited to shield-wall combat.

2) Elements of a Lorica Segmentata have been dated to 10 BC, and this probably does not represent the first use of this armour. However, the team is of the opinion that it did not become widespread until 50 AD, and even at its most popular, many legionaries would still use chainmail.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

It would be nice if a new Roman reform (Tiberian Reform) were introduced into EB, which would only become possible to get between 9 BC and 13 AD, and with very high eligibility requirements, which would introduce the lorica segmentata for praetorian cohorts only (since the main use of the armor during the Pax Romana would be to look nice and shiny on parade.)

So lorica segmentata would become a reward for a successful Roman campaign.

[Ca Putt]

considering that the team even thought of dumping the imerial reform(tho i assume they sorted that by now and are not argueing anymore) in EB2 because it's acchived too late and seldom the chances of that happening are VERY slim. tho personally I'd be ok with some of the legionaries wearing it by chance(as M2TW gives this option) but not a whole regiment full of LS legions.
tho one could make a unofficial submod :)

Ludens, what I think annoys many here is that people bump in here with a bunch of lukewarm facts and claim that they know more than the EB-Team or the community(as it apparently has not pointed that out before. And most importantly they don't go into an existing thread and argue with the others or they first read existing threads, they open up a new thread and claim their ideas are absolute and that it has to be changed, not a suggestion, a demand. at least that is waht angers me every time I read one of these posts. As I'm not part of the EB team I'm not as enraged as when it'd be MY mod/share of the research.
from a mod I worked on I remember people always comeing up with how wrong my ancient greek would be as I write Oxybeles instead of Oxyvelis and so on. or that my research was not conform with the discriptions from Age of Empires: Mythologies(the DS tough version).
so rant over^^

[stratigos vasilios]

*deep exhale*

[bobbin]

Come on everyone give the guy a break, most of us would have thought the same things at some point in the past.

@TotalWarlord: Please don't use "gay" as a swearword, it is a pretty offensive use of the word.

[Tellos Athenaios]

When it comes to the hoplites, I didn't. My first idea of what hoplites looked like was from a cartoon by Marcia Williams which I got as a present when I must've been about 8 years old or so. The original English version is "The Illiad and The Odyssey" (the Dutch translation is "De Trojaanse oorlog en De reizen van Odysseus").

[anubis88]

You must admit tough that it is really peculiar that a first post from someone is about such a topic... It's really very wierd isn't it?

[Populus Romanus]

As for lorica segementa, that is innaccurate. However, underhand hoplite spears is a topic of some interest of mine. However, I am busy right now and am unable to post.

[Zarax]

I propose the team counts the LS threads: if they reach one hundred the end date will be switched to 146BC, when all interesting factions ends existing in history

[fomalhaut]

You must admit tough that it is really peculiar that a first post from someone is about such a topic... It's really very wierd isn't it?

right, they made an account solely to discuss the innacuracy of EB. In that much effort he could have read the FAQ

[saka-rauka1]

oh my lord you don't know what you just started!!!!

This :P

[Olaf The Great]

1-The way they fight is hardcoded, the spears issue is not. Overhand fighting is the most probable way hoplites fought.
2-The LATE 1st century, a part of the game represented by about 20 turns out of around 2000...not important. Not even considering the fact that the Lorica Segmentata took years to be common in the armies and even then it wasn't enough to be an entire unit.

[jirisys]

1144 Turns actually.

~Jirisys ()

[antisocialmunky]

Could we please stop treating anyone who brings up a controversial topic as a potential troll? This is a good way of ensuring the topic stays controversial.

TotalWarlord's arguments have indeed been hotly debated before, but that is because many people have heard only one side of the story. So yes, it's quite possible that a new member is not aware of this, especially if he didn't check out the FAQ. Shouting "OMG, how can you not know?!" at him will not convince him you are right.



Just a few nitpicks:

1) It probably wasn't as absolute as this: both high and low styles are feasible with sarissa's and dory's, depending on what the situation requires. Swiss pikemen had a stance where they held their pikes at shoulder height (the phalangite shield useless in this stance, so Hellenic pikemen probably didn't use this). Underhand spear-fighting can make sense for hoplites too, say in one-on-one combat. The team went with overhand style since this is used on most Classical depictions, and seems suited to shield-wall combat.

2) Elements of a Lorica Segmentata have been dated to 10 BC, and this probably does not represent the first use of this armour. However, the team is of the opinion that it did not become widespread until 50 AD, and even at its most popular, many legionaries would still use chainmail.

It is hard to take a 1 post person seriously especially if they don't respond in some way afterwards. Also the post gets more outlandish as it goes. :\ Inform him however you must though.

[TotalWarlord]

I apologize to everyone that has been offended by this post. I had no intentions in anyway whatsoever to insult or mar the credibility of the EB Team as they made a very good job. All I can say is:
The EB team was right about the overhand method. However it also depended on the length of the spear the hoplite was equiped. Certainly a longer spear would be difficult to strike in the overhand fashion.

Well antisocialmunky I have been reading the responses from everyone who made a reply and was taking into perspective each ones opinion.

[fomalhaut]

hey totalwarlord, thank you for replying! just imagine from our perspective that someone's very first post was were the two very, very controversial topics.

[TotalWarlord]

fomalhaut I'm very sorry for the fact that these topics were very controversial for as you see I am very quite new here.