International Court...slow, but on the right track?

[Jaguara]

Some might argue that the International Court is still finding it's feet, and once some jurisprudence is established, things might start to move faster...and with a 500 case, 30 year backlog, it definately needs to. Of course, funding for some extra judges might help too...

International Court Rulings for Croatia

A judgement handed down today by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) convicting two Croatian generals of responsibility for crimes against humanity is a strong victory for Croatia’s war victims, Amnesty International said.

Regarding the Croatian courts:

High-level Croatian political figures – including current Deputy Speaker of the Croatian Parliament Vladimir Seks – have yet to face investigation. Prosecutions target mostly Croatian Serbs and other minorities whereas crimes committed by the Croatian Army and police forces go unpunished.

Not atypical, in many situations the victors only prosecute the crimes of the losing side. That said, this is why the international court is so important.

I am curious to hear what some locals think of all this (Sarmatian is a Serb, do we have any Bosnians or Croats here?).



One last thought...

According to the indictment, crimes against humanity were committed during the 1995 military operation, including persecutions, deportation, murder and inhumane acts. The charges also included war crimes, such as unlawful destruction of civilian property.

Hmmm...persecution, segregation, limitation of movement, potential deliberate targeting of civilians, inhumane acts and destruction of civilian property and infrastructure...sound like anywhere else we know?

[Brenus]

I was gutted. What? Is it a crime to kill Serbs now? That is SO NOT FAIR.
Oric, commander of Srebrenica, for the same kind of things, was found not guilty and walked free…
The entire Kosova official killed and “ethnic” cleaned Serbs and others and they’ve got official position.

Support for Gotovina and the other one I forget his name…

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

It's a joke, the whole International Court. One big wig wearing joke....

[Sarmatian]

I am curious to hear what some locals think of all this (Sarmatian is a Serb, do we have any Bosnians or Croats here?).

About what? This particular verdict, international court in general, the war, war crimes... ?

Those who set up those courts don't like when their allies get convicted of war crimes, it makes them look bad...

[Jaguara]

About what? This particular verdict, international court in general, the war, war crimes... ?

Those who set up those courts don't like when their allies get convicted of war crimes, it makes them look bad...

How about if we focus on the court itself, it's verdict, and the way ahead? I would rather not dig up the nitty gritty and tit-for-tat of the war(s), unless they are neccessary to make a relevant point.

I would hope that in time the International court can gain strength and credability to the point where the ends can no longer justify the means. If the court dies, then we are back to the victors and the powerful punishing only the losers, while they go on in impunity.

I am encouraged that these were Croats, and I am hoping that it was not just a token. It is essential that the court be able to act independantly, and not just be a tool of, oh I don't know...the US?

[Jaguara]

It's a joke, the whole International Court. One big wig wearing joke....

Hmmm...compared to what exactly? (Maybe you meant compared to the Guantanimo trials?)

Upon what do you base this assessment? (Why? Because the US refuses to recognize it, though they are eager to use it against their enemies?)

How would you see it improved? What do you see as the solution?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Um maybe just kill the Dictators in the first place in their palaces?

[Sarmatian]

How about if we focus on the court itself, it's verdict, and the way ahead? I would rather not dig up the nitty gritty and tit-for-tat of the war(s), unless they are neccessary to make a relevant point.

I would hope that in time the International court can gain strength and credability to the point where the ends can no longer justify the means. If the court dies, then we are back to the victors and the powerful punishing only the losers, while they go on in impunity.

I am encouraged that these were Croats, and I am hoping that it was not just a token. It is essential that the court be able to act independantly, and not just be a tool of, oh I don't know...the US?

Hmm, it is a complicated issue. People are moving on, that's definitely happening. There's a joint basketball league, there's talk of a joint football league (it's going slower because of the various mobsters wannabe who aren't keen on relinquishing control), Big Brother reality show for the first hosted people from all countries that used to make up Yugoslavia, traveling isn't longer complicated - you don't need visas and in most cases you don't a passport, an ID is enough. Bussinesses are picking up, although Croats still tend not to allow Serbian companies or Serbian products on the Croatian market but I believe it'll get better. Current Croatian president seems a reasonable man but the government is a bit too much nationalistic for my taste. So, all in all, things are looking up indeed.

Now, how much is that because of the courts... IMHO, not much, if any. One might say it is in spite of courts. Serbs tend to see themselves as being singled out and victimized, Croats and Bosnian muslims generally hate when any of theirs end up in the court because it's a stain on their heroic, against-the-odds, purely defensive war.

General incompetence of the courts doesn't help either. Vojislav Seselj, who is a Serbian ultra nationalist spent more than half a decade in the Hague without being indicted. I'm naturally not a fan of his, but there isn't a court in the civilized world which could keep a man in jail for six or seven years without indicting him. It doesn't really speak well of a court when it first locks someone up and then spend a decade looking for the reason why.

When Bosnia sued Serbia for genocide, court ruled that there was a genocide, that Serbia didn't commit genocide and that Serbia was guilty of not preventing it. How can you take seriosly a court after a verdict like that, devoid of sense and logic?

I myself am quite disillusioned by all this. In my opinion these aren't courts but a tool of the great powers (read: US & co at the moment) to have a legal excuse for anything they might do.

[Brenus]

And what about the one who help Gotovina and the Croats?
The nones who trained. rearmed and facilitated the offensive in destroying all Serbian Air Defence and Communication Centers, who enforced Deny Fly against the Serbian Air Force (4 Galebs shot down the day before by two F-16) but allowed Croatians to heliport troops and the Croatian Air Force to strike against civilians?
What about the fact that Knin was, as Sebrenica, the UN Protected (safe) Area?
I don't know why suddenly the Court decided that Gotovina was guilty. He is. But as much as Oric and others war criminals.
And probably less that the Kosova KLA commanders, in term of abomination...

[Jaguara]

Hmm, it is a complicated issue. People are moving on, that's definitely happening. There's a joint basketball league, there's talk of a joint football league (it's going slower because of the various mobsters wannabe who aren't keen on relinquishing control), Big Brother reality show for the first hosted people from all countries that used to make up Yugoslavia, traveling isn't longer complicated - you don't need visas and in most cases you don't a passport, an ID is enough. Bussinesses are picking up, although Croats still tend not to allow Serbian companies or Serbian products on the Croatian market but I believe it'll get better. Current Croatian president seems a reasonable man but the government is a bit too much nationalistic for my taste. So, all in all, things are looking up indeed.

Now, how much is that because of the courts... IMHO, not much, if any. One might say it is in spite of courts. Serbs tend to see themselves as being singled out and victimized, Croats and Bosnian muslims generally hate when any of theirs end up in the court because it's a stain on their heroic, against-the-odds, purely defensive war.

Though it was not the main topic, I am really pleased that you shared this. I knew some Bosnian war refugees who came to Canada. They were not anti-Serb, they were anti-war. As is typical over here, after the shooting stops, the press forget about it. So, I have heard very little since the Kosovo thing.

I particularly liked your line "in spite of the courts". At this point, where they have taken SO long to rule on these things, one might wonder if it is only reopening old wounds. I definately think these things have to find a way to be expedited.

The impression I had gotten was that the local courts were the ones who were being so biased (for example courts in Croatia not charging or releasing Croats, while persecuting all Serbs with a vengance.). Is the international court any better?

The court was definately used as a tool by the US. In the same way the UN as a whole was. The US has become so critical of the UN only because it has been slowly becoming an institution on it's own, and can no longer be effectively controlled by the US. (It can be hindered - a la veto - but they do not dominate it's policies as they once did.) My perception is that in time, the international courts have slowly been becoming more independant, and less willing to bend to pressure. If this trend continues, even slowly, I would think that there is hope that in time they could become a fair arbiter.

[HoreTore]

It's critical for the court to prosecute croatians, bosnians and albanians in addition to the serbs.

Not just because of the crimes committed, but because by doing so, we might finally get rid of that intolerable non-stop bitching and whining coming from Serbia.

I don't support war. I don't support nuclear strikes. But my resistance to nuking Serbia diminishes everytime I hear one of them bitch and whine about "the international community". I'm starting to believe that elevated levels of nationalist whining should justify nuclear strikes....

[Jaguara]

Um maybe just kill the Dictators in the first place in their palaces?

I thought this was a discussion about the international courts. I do not see the relevance of your comment.

[Sarmatian]

Not just because of the crimes committed, but because by doing so, we might finally get rid of that intolerable non-stop bitching and whining coming from Serbia.

So it's working. Good to know, good to know...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Excellent tribunal, good to see these people convicted. Ideally, one would hope a tribunal, or at least a truth and reconcilliation committe, can be organised by and held within the country itself. But that is only possible after a change of regime, after an ideological shift. This is not at all the case in Croatia, which is run by the very perpetrators. Justice shall have to be the product of international pressure and international courts then.

[HoreTore]

So it's working. Good to know, good to know...

At this point, it's like watching a rerun of paradise hotel that never ends.

[CountArach]

Um maybe just kill the Dictators in the first place in their palaces?

Every human has a right to due process, according to the Universtal Dclaration of Human Rights:

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

If we throw out this article in those cases which would appear most convenient for whatever cause we are fighting for, then surely we are just doing the same thing these tyrrants are? By dispensing with the law whenever we wish we can no longer have any claim to the moral high ground.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I thought this was a discussion about the international courts. I do not see the relevance of your comment.

You mean a bunch of guys who play dress up because they forget this is 2011 and not 1800? Sorry, I must have be mistaken!

They are jokes. They are like the UN. So they tell you that you a bad person and you should face charges. Really? How you going to do that if no one is going to come arrest you and your people won't depose of you? You tell me how it happens in the real world and I show you how many successful cases there has been.

[Jaguara]

You mean a bunch of guys who play dress up because they forget this is 2011 and not 1800? Sorry, I must have be mistaken!

That could describe any court.

They are jokes. They are like the UN. So they tell you that you a bad person and you should face charges. Really? How you going to do that if no one is going to come arrest you and your people won't depose of you? You tell me how it happens in the real world and I show you how many successful cases there has been.

Well, my point was that it takes time, and that perhaps we are on the right track.

Yes, without the co-operation of the state where the person is residing, there is not a lot the court can do. However, these people then end up living as fugitives within the countries where they take shelter. They may or may not suffer for it. They are also vulnerable if there is a change of government to one that is willing to turn them over.

As time goes on, and credibility of the court increases, and as more countries sign to accept it's authority, there is potential for this to become a viable tool to decreasing crimes against humanity and war crimes.

[HoreTore]

No wiggies in the ICC, that's british courts. And the ex-colonials minus one.

As for its relevance... Well, the victims of those sentenced by the court seem rather happy, they seem to be pleased that justice has been done.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You mean a bunch of guys who play dress up because they forget this is 2011 and not 1800? Sorry, I must have be mistaken!

They are jokes. They are like the UN. So they tell you that you a bad person and you should face charges. Really? How you going to do that if no one is going to come arrest you and your people won't depose of you? You tell me how it happens in the real world and I show you how many successful cases there has been.

Seems as if you view everyone but Americans as a joke.

When no one is laughing at a joke but you, there comes a point where you have to examine whether it is extremely subtle comedy or you are just a fool.

[Louis VI the Fat]

This is not the ICC. This is the ICTY. Americans are part of it. Apparantly people have been succesfully brought before court, in a succesful case, because they have just been convicted, see 'topic of debate'.