Religion, moral and values.

[Shibumi]

Reading the American political spectrum thread, one of the questions stood out.

It IS NOT necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values
or
It IS necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values

I thought this whole debate belonged in some wacky borderline crazy religious fringe in politics, but given it got a position among the top 20 questions of American politics - it scares me to say the least.

Is the belief that a belief in God (I assume the Christian one is the one implied) is necessary widely spread enough for this to be a real issue, or did this political compass go out on a limb for some reason?


And as a side note - what would the reasoning behind this belief be?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Reading the American political spectrum thread, one of the questions stood out.

It IS NOT necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values
or
It IS necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values

I thought this whole debate belonged in some wacky borderline crazy religious fringe in politics, but given it got a position among the top 20 questions of American politics - it scares me to say the least.

Is the belief that a belief in God (I assume the Christian one is the one implied) is necessary widely spread enough for this to be a real issue, or did this political compass go out on a limb for some reason?


And as a side note - what would the reasoning behind this belief be?

Sounds liek you need to learn some more about America bro. Come over here and watch our TV.


As for the reasoning, ummm ask PVC or Rhy.

[Shibumi]

Wow.

Is that guy at all representing some sort of major stream in thinking? Over here he would come off as a complete loon.

[HoreTore]

What is the reasoning?

Hate.

Nothing else. Hate towards those who do not believe as you do.

[Scienter]

Is the belief that a belief in God (I assume the Christian one is the one implied) is necessary widely spread enough for this to be a real issue, or did this political compass go out on a limb for some reason?


And as a side note - what would the reasoning behind this belief be?

I believe that it is a real issue. I seriously doubt that an agnostic/atheist President will be elected in the US any time soon. I think that many Americans consider the US a Christian country. I'd like to see a breakdown of Congresspeople by religion, though.

Personally, I don't think that one must believe in a higher power to have good morals and values. But, I believe that I am in the minority. I would like to hear reasoning behind the belief that one must believe in God to have good values, though I would probably disagree with it.

[gaelic cowboy]

I'd say tisn't hate not at this stage in American civilisation, there are plenty loons allright but my hunch is that it's more cultural, they live in an echo chamber 'twould seem a perfectly sound statement that you have to be religious to have morals to them.

[HoreTore]

Wiki has the answer to your question, Scienter:

1.

One atheist in congress. Enjoy your theocracy.

[Scienter]

Wiki has the answer to your question, Scienter:

1.

One atheist in congress. Enjoy your theocracy.

I'm surprised that there's even one. I'm not an atheist, I just believe that religion and law shouldn't intersect. My beliefs are my own, and I don't care if other people don't believe the same as me. It's none of my business, really. I don't have issues with religion so long as people don't try to legislate their religious views into my life. That's a line that shouldn't be crossed. Separation of church and state, and all that.

[Skullheadhq]

Without being religious, I think it is impossible to come to a consensus on a universal set of morals, since it is impossible for an atheist to even define what morals are. This makes some weak persons immoral, but not all atheists, I think. The lack of consensus is the problem.

[HoreTore]

What the hell?

It's impossible for an atheist to define morality? What are you smoking.....?

[Skullheadhq]

What the hell?

It's impossible for an atheist to define morality? What are you smoking.....?

Define it then. And one on which all atheists can agree.

[HoreTore]

Define it then. And one on which all atheists can agree.

"atheists" is not a group of people.

[Skullheadhq]

"atheists" is not a group of people.

And therefore it lacks an universal set of morals, which leads many to immorality.
And even if it would be an organized group of people, most would reject any obligated moral code anyway.

[HoreTore]

And therefore it lacks an universal set of morals, which leads many to immorality.
And even if it would be an organized group of people, most would reject any obligated moral code anyway.

Yes, because we all know that catholic priests make great kindergarden workers....

What nonsense. An enforced universal code is not needed to make people behave ethically.

Also, in order for them to behave immorally one would need a standard of morality, which you say is impossible to have. So, the argument kinda fails at the start.

[Skullheadhq]

What nonsense. An enforced universal code is not needed to make people behave ethically.

What utter nonsense! The increase of atheism has led to more disgusting immorality in this last 20 years than ever seen before! And yes, catholic priests make mistakes, but the general public has never been so immoral or so tolerant to immorality!

[Beskar]

What utter nonsense! The increase of atheism has led to more disgusting immorality in this last 20 years than ever seen before!

Ermmm.... no?

That is completely unsupported and unfounded with no basis in reality. It would be the equivalent of me saying "The decrease in Catholicism over the past 20 years has led to a decrease in Child Abuse.", it was actually the public pressure from greater transparency within the church and the efforts of the church to tackle such issues with the latest pope in particular doing a major crackdown. (Have to give him props for that)

If anything, the figures show that there has been a general decrease in the last twenty years though with greater transparency on the issues. Then with the main issues of immorality within the last decade has been purely funded by those of a religious background, such as the release of Catholic Priest scandals in the USA and Ireland, Osama Bin Laden who is a Muslim and even Josef Fritzl visited church on a Sunday.

[Ironside]

The historical irony of humans coming up with a moral value and then give it power by claiming that it's coming from the gods is not lost on me.

Skullheadhq, I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but please define your moral value from the Bible then. With quotes!

[Skullheadhq]

The historical irony of humans coming up with a moral value and then give it power by claiming that it's coming from the gods is not lost on me.

Skullheadhq, I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but please define your moral value from the Bible then. With quotes!

Is it possible to quote the entire law of Moses, prophets, Luke, Mark, John, Matthew and the epistles of the Apostle's in one post or should I do it in multiple.
And even if morality doesn't come from 'the gods', it still wouldn't harm, except wicked and immoral people.

Ermmm.... no?

That is completely unsupported and unfounded with no basis in reality. It would be the equivalent of me saying "The decrease in Catholicism over the past 20 years has led to a decrease in Child Abuse."

Do you think that more atheism and godlessness will increase morality?

[Ironside]

Is it possible to quote the entire law of Moses, prophets, Luke, Mark, John, Matthew and the epistles of the Apostle's in one post or should I do it in multiple.
And even if morality doesn't come from 'the gods', it still wouldn't harm, except wicked and immoral people.

Thankfully I found at least some of them here http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Bible_rules.
Are all of them still applying or have some became obsolete? If some are obsolete, which ones? And who decides that?

[Major Robert Dump]

I would disagree that the US is a Christian country. Yes, it is the majority by a long shot. But lets get a few things straight.

I hesistate to say "the majority", but a substantial amount of people do not go to church on a regular basis. This includes believers. And while one does not have to attend church to believe, I bring this up because a substantial number of "believers" also do not adhere to the lifestyle. It's called being a "convenient christian." Ask a man convicted of rape and murder what his religion is...most likley christian. Go to a strip club with an anti-christian slogan on your shirt and expect to get punched by a "christian." Having "christian beliefs" does not make one a religious person, the funny thing being that most "christian beliefs" adhere to the same core principles as just about every other religion.

We are secular, which means that religion affects, at most, laws and legislation indirectly, so much that even in-your-face christians will often cringe when a loon tries to justify some crazy knee-jerk law based on "Gods will." Yeah, yeah, this on time Bush said that one thing about God guiding him blah blah. That's what that is, it's blah.

To be honest, I am very comfortable where we are as a country in terms of religion. It is here, but it is not. Yes, a christian candidate will likley have leverage over a non-christian, but that honestly does not bother me because most christian politicians -- even the religious conservative ones -- don't legislate through the Bible. There is a large segment of the political conservative movement who holds animosity towards the religous right for highjacking the GOP because GOP fiscal and social intervention principles are incompatible with GOP Christian nanny-state ideas no matter how you boil it down.

The only reason more non-believer leaders haven't come out as such is because they have a better chance of winning if they "believe." Photos of a president coming out of church holding a bible goes an awful long way with Granny.

The American left, Eurpoean press and muslim nations try fairly often to paint America as some big, Christian doom machine, when in fact we are so sectarian that trying to post the 10 commandments in a court house brings out the alligators and people lost jobs and re-elections.

to the OP:
My answer is no, religion is not necessary, and I think that you will find the majority of americans feel the same way

[Skullheadhq]

Thankfully I found at least some of them here http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Bible_rules.
Are of them still applying or have some became obsolete? If some are obsolete, which ones? And who decides that?

None are obsolete, but is it possible to do every single one of them always?

[Beskar]

You forgot to mention the ones that contradict each other.

Do you support the return of stoning as a punishment as well, Skullheadhq?

I like this one too:

Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

In the Old Testament, God hates cripples during the time where the "modern medicine" was covering a wound with dung. No wonder he sent Jesus, he ran out of eligible followers.

[Skullheadhq]

You forgot to mention the ones that contradict each other.

Do you support the return of stoning as a punishment as well, Skullheadhq?

Jesus didn't, he sent away the adulturous women while saying they shouldn't do it again. But since when is this a theological debate?

[HoreTore]

Do you think that more atheism and godlessness will increase morality?

My answer to that is a clear "YES!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Beskar]

I believe alternatives such as Humanism will increase morality, yes.

[Major Robert Dump]

What utter nonsense! The increase of atheism has led to more disgusting immorality in this last 20 years than ever seen before! And yes, catholic priests make mistakes, but the general public has never been so immoral or so tolerant to immorality!

Not only can you not prove this, it is unprovable.

The media age has made death and debauchery far more visible, available and newsowrthy than ever before. This kind of crap has always gone on in the world, and to a far greater extent. There were no TWEETS during the crusades, FOX wasn't there when the Mongols raped a couple of continents, and the perverted things you *accidentally* find on the internet have always existed. With education and the availability of information came the downfall of the church's monoploy on "good citizenship" and ultimately the rise of secular government.

To think that we are the first generation of men who realized all the totally awesome places in which to place our penises is laughable.

[HoreTore]

The last 50 years has seen a drastic decline the number of religious people in western europe. In that timeframe, we have also seen:

-drastic economic growth among the general population
-women accepted as equals instead of lesser people
-pre-marital sex is now the norm and fully accepted
-gays are more accepted than ever before
-positions of power are no longer reserved for white, hetrosexual males
-most blasphemy laws and other such restrictions of free speech have finally been removed
-democracy is spread around the world
-universal rights and benefits like healthcare
-abortion is completely legal and accepted
-violence is no longer an accepted form of child-rearing
-neither is violence in marriage accepted

I could go on all day, but I believe this is enough for now.

[Ironside]

None are obsolete, but is it possible to do every single one of them always?

Well, it is quite possible to break them always. I'm already condemned so it's not a problem.

- Deuteronomy 23:2:
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation."

You better hope that any of the 1024 couples that are your ancenstors didn't cheat.
Σ(2 + 2*2 ... 2^10)/2=1024
For a generous 2% cheating ratio (historically, it's been much higher), we got 7 people in the world that can enter into the congregation of the LORD, statistically speaking.

[HoreTore]

Well, the Ten Commandments most christians point to when claiming moral superiority, are filled with human rights abuses and other evil, and I consider those them the pinnacle of immorality.

[Skullheadhq]

-pre-marital sex is now the norm and fully accepted
-gays are more accepted than ever before
-positions of power are no longer reserved for [...], hetrosexual males
-most blasphemy laws and other such restrictions of free speech have finally been removed
-abortion is completely legal and accepted

Doesn't sound so moral to me, quite the opposite, in fact.

Well, the Ten Commandments most christians point to when claiming moral superiority, are filled with human rights abuses and other evil, and I consider those them the pinnacle of immorality.

Modern liberal '(human) rights' crybabyism is not the same as morality.
Then again, I was not thinking about Christianity specifically. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and the likes also instill a somewhat good moral code into the minds and hearts of its believers, it's just that atheism spreads immorality.