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Thread: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

  1. #91
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Version is updated to 1.86: It's the patch 2 compatibility fix (CA's patch from 9th May).

    I wish happy gaming with the DX11 and Anti-Aliasing improvements etc..

    A contentwise update for S2R+ will happen some time in future.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-10-2011 at 00:11.
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  2. #92
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Version updated to 1.87, see changelog/release thread.

    I'll keep this version probably for a good while, campaign playtesting is needed.
    However, i'm pretty confident in the assumption that major factions will have a good stand, finally (with or without the custom start-unit light script).

    Edit: In the changelog i forget to mention that also with the garrison modding is dealt again (slightly less mighty compared to the last used one, while main extra spawned units are Ashigaru Bowmen).
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-10-2011 at 06:18.
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  3. #93

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Hey Davinci,
    Are you able to play custom battles with version 1.87 and the patch? cause whenever I play a custom battle, the loading screen before the battle freezes. This doesnt happen if i delete 1.87.

  4. #94

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Anyway, I just got this idea that i think can help balance out ashigaru and samurai ...

    So we all know that historically, ashigaru at the start of the game were nothing other than a mob of opportunistic peasants who could rout as easily as how they are being recruited, but later on, daimyo began providing them armor and military training to make them valuable enough to replace the samurai (if you don't know about this, you should read Ashigaru 1467-1649 by Stephen Turnbull). So the way ashigaru being portraited in the game results on a lot of people on tw.org and twcenter complaining about either samurai being too redundant in or ashigaru being too useless or things like that. Even though you have fixed parts of the problems by giving samurai extra armour and putting unit limit on them, IMO ashigaru is still to OP at the beginning of the game and a bit under-powered in late game.

    So I'm thinking that this problem could be fixed by either one of the two following ways
    1. use technologies to upgrade ashigaru, similar to the way line infantry being upgraded in ETW. So late-game techs could give ashigaru stat bonus and make them real valuable
    2. create a clone version for each type of ashigaru. This extra ashigaru unit, let say LateGame Yari Ashigaru, has superior stats than the original one but can only be recruited if you have a certain building or tech or after you pass a certain year. You can differentiate visually the two units by giving the original yari ashigaru skin like in Unit variety 2.05 (image below), and the clone one the vanilla skin (which is much better equipped).

    Let me know what you think...i know this would require a lot of hard work but perhaps it could give us a more realistic ashigaru warfare.

  5. #95
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by vuvihu View Post
    Anyway, I just got this idea that i think can help balance out ashigaru and samurai ...

    So we all know that historically, ashigaru at the start of the game were nothing other than a mob of opportunistic peasants who could rout as easily as how they are being recruited, but later on, daimyo began providing them armor and military training to make them valuable enough to replace the samurai (if you don't know about this, you should read Ashigaru 1467-1649 by Stephen Turnbull). So the way ashigaru being portraited in the game results on a lot of people on tw.org and twcenter complaining about either samurai being too redundant in or ashigaru being too useless or things like that. Even though you have fixed parts of the problems by giving samurai extra armour and putting unit limit on them, IMO ashigaru is still to OP at the beginning of the game and a bit under-powered in late game.

    So I'm thinking that this problem could be fixed by either one of the two following ways
    1. use technologies to upgrade ashigaru, similar to the way line infantry being upgraded in ETW. So late-game techs could give ashigaru stat bonus and make them real valuable
    2. create a clone version for each type of ashigaru. This extra ashigaru unit, let say LateGame Yari Ashigaru, has superior stats than the original one but can only be recruited if you have a certain building or tech or after you pass a certain year. You can differentiate visually the two units by giving the original yari ashigaru skin like in Unit variety 2.05 (image below), and the clone one the vanilla skin (which is much better equipped).

    Let me know what you think...i know this would require a lot of hard work but perhaps it could give us a more realistic ashigaru warfare.
    Yeah, thanks for your thoughts. I'm thinking in the same direction.

    No. 1 is easier, because a. no skinning work is demanded and b. no issue with Unit Variety mod is not given free for a usage in mods (Hedge Knight, the modder for UV concrete forbids the usage).
    But i would like to prefer both things, no. 1 and 2.

    However, if i had a skinner in the team, could get around the b. issue, as we could make our own Ashi skins, ie. i would like to have also early Ashi's without swords at their belts, at least not for the poor equipped ones, better equipped Ashi's (with swords at their belts) could also simulate poor Samurai's which were historically mixed into Ashi "regiments".
    If you, vuvihu, would be a skinner, i would like to recruit you into the S2R+ team instantly ... let me know if you are going to learn skinning S2 units, and please join me then.

    Even though you have fixed parts of the problems by giving samurai extra armour and putting unit limit on them, IMO ashigaru is still to OP at the beginning of the game and a bit under-powered in late game.
    I did much more already, really a lot more tweaks in this regard are done, than only adding armour values and limits to Samurai, to working out the unit differences.

    ---

    At this moment of this discussion i would like to mention also, once more, but concrete: (those descriptions will be part for the planned S2R+ guide)

    - Sword Ashi's are retainers, partly young Samurai and similar extraordinary warriors and/or servants, capable fighters with a sword. They might become full Samurai, if they survive fights long enough (for the imagination) - since 1.87 they are only recruitable with Sword School, afterwards "they become Samurai". The changed name of them shall be a hint of this role.
    - Bow Ashi's aren't ordinary Ashi's, they are some sort of elite Ashi's, similar to the above ones, but not the same close retainers. Just real soldiers, primary trained with bows and sword, and every castle has them, of course they should be deployed also for sieges. Perhaps i will lower the arrow ammo still, to make this role still more present, that they aren't poor skirmishers, but some rare valuable soldiers.
    - Naginata Ashi's, they are trained soldiers for melee fights, but of course inferior to Samurai or other retainers. In the late Sengoku period, they weren't a part of deployments anymore, this is reflected now since 1.87.
    - Indeed, the Yari Ashi is the typical Ashi from which we speak if we take "Ashigaru" into account. While also here are mixed-in some Samurai and capable (experienced) men. It is not that easy to balance them properly, throughout the campaign, but solutions are started, and can and will be improved.

    ---

    As for custom battle mode, no, i haven't tested it as of yet ;) ... if it is so, then it is still a culprit with CA's patch to S2R+ used files (codes) - if i had access to patch5 files, i could solve that effectively.

    I only can confirm, that campaign battles work without any issues.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-11-2011 at 23:11.
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  6. #96
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vuvihu View Post
    Hey Davinci,
    Are you able to play custom battles with version 1.87 and the patch? cause whenever I play a custom battle, the loading screen before the battle freezes. This doesnt happen if i delete 1.87.
    Hm, i have just playtested the with 1.87 new added Mori Nagi Ashi vs. a Date Nagi Samurai in custom battle mode: No issues at all.

    Please repeat a custom battle and tell me exactly which factions + units are deployed.
    The only possible issue i can imagine is with Sword Ashi's, as vanilla patch5 prepared them now for Ikko Ikki (thanks to Radious for this specific info).

    EDIT

    Have just playtested Sword Ashi's in custom battle mode: No issues.
    Also i have no unit card issues (mentioned by Belgae in another thread).
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-12-2011 at 02:37.
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  7. #97
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Preview info:

    As CA prepared the default Sword Ashigaru as usage for Ikko Ikki in their upcoming DLC, i'll disable the default Sword Ashigaru in S2R+. So there won't be conflicts.

    As some sort of replacement, i'll make much more faction-specific Sword Ashigaru units for the main factions ( just not for Ikko Ikki ;) ) in upcoming S2R+ updates.
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  8. #98

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    My bad on the custom battle thing....Just tried to play custom battles again, everything works perfectly. It's probably just my computer or me being stupid
    If you, vuvihu, would be a skinner, i would like to recruit you into the S2R+ team instantly ... let me know if you are going to learn skinning S2 units, and please join me then.
    Sorry I'm just a noob in modding. Hopefully someone with real experiences with skinning can help you out on this.
    anyway i got another quick question... I was trying to make a personal mod based on S2+ 1.4, just changing the unit stat table and projectile table. The problem is that i got random freezing loading screen after finishing a battle (both campaign battle and custom battle) and you have to alt F4 and replay the battle again. It happens like 50% of the time. Do you know what might cause the issue? Thanks a lot.

  9. #99
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by vuvihu View Post
    My bad on the custom battle thing....Just tried to play custom battles again, everything works perfectly. It's probably just my computer or me being stupid

    Sorry I'm just a noob in modding. Hopefully someone with real experiences with skinning can help you out on this.
    anyway i got another quick question... I was trying to make a personal mod based on S2+ 1.4, just changing the unit stat table and projectile table. The problem is that i got random freezing loading screen after finishing a battle (both campaign battle and custom battle) and you have to alt F4 and replay the battle again. It happens like 50% of the time. Do you know what might cause the issue? Thanks a lot.
    No idea, which values did you change.
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  10. #100

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Hey Da Vinci. The latest 1.87 on H/H still ends out with the Oda dying out after turn 3 for me on every playthrough.

    I am only using your mod and graphics/other non-essential mods. I took out all scripts in order to properly test the mod. :/

    I will see if anything will change with additional changes...

  11. #101
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Good to see you back in the thread :)

    Yes, but at least Shimazu AI seems to play better now.
    In my last trials with 1.87 (chosokabe test H/H), Oda survived somehow in the former Kiso homeland (iirc. that was within the first 10 turns or so, then i stopped to playtest).
    Oda has no matter what a damn hard position as he is at war with Imagawa who benefits from the initial war between Tokugawa and Oda, and thus has always the potencial to roll over the according regions, if Oda AI makes the smallest mistake.

    I just loaded up v1.88, which might have a potencial to help Oda once more for a better maintainance (also for Shimazu and Mori), i actually hope there is finally an improvement for these specific majors (although the campaign AI is just stupid).

    ---

    Preview-info:
    - Addition of a mid-late Sengoku period capable Yari Ashigaru (en par with the Oda faction-specific one), which needs 1 turn, probably recruitable from on castle-fortress or castle-castle tier (not sure now), and will replace the former usual Yari Ashigaru.
    - Addition of faction-specific Naginata Ashigaru (for certain factions, reserved for some major factions).
    - Addition of faction-specific Sword Ashigaru (for certain factions, reserved for some major factions).
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-13-2011 at 00:51.
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  12. #102
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Version 1.89 uploaded. See changelog.

    This version contains the late Yari Ashigaru unit addition, as above announced.
    Info addition - this added unit is not available for: Oda, Ikko-Ikki (because they have a faction-specific and capable Yari Ashigaru from the start).
    Edit: ... and not for Shimazu and Mori (see post below).
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-13-2011 at 06:51.
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  13. #103
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Version 1.90 uploaded.

    Today it has been marathon modding and playtesting (1.89 resulted in Shimazu early destroyed).
    Two faction-specific Yari Ashigaru added (Shimazu and Mori).
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-13-2011 at 06:50.
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  14. #104
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Another update uploaded, v1.91, see changelog.

    A content update regarding CA's patch.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-13-2011 at 18:18.
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  15. #105
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    The fixed v1.91 (2nd Edition) uploaded.
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  16. #106
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    V 1.92 uploaded.
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  17. #107
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Just a few questions to S2R+ players: Theme pike-wall animation

    Do you use the pike-wall animation for Yari Ashigaru if you defend?
    Does it help them in comparison to non-pike-wall?
    What do you feel about the pretty high fatigue effect of that animation?
    Does the AI apply that animation well?
    ... shall i remove that animation from the Yari Ashigaru? Edit: Question pulled back, i forget just that it is unfortunately not possible to simply remove codes, and in this case it is probably also not an option to replace the according codes. ... bad, because i see this is a disadvantage for the AI which applies it in defence (and deployment changes) and suffers from the high fatigue effect.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-19-2011 at 22:01.
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  18. #108

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    hi Davinci,
    Can you please describe the crash that u fixed in 1.92? I'm making a personal mod based on 1.90, everything works fine but 60 turns into my Oda campaign, I have 2 CTDs, which happens when Hojo's and Uesugi's capital are taken by another AI faction. Do you ever experience something like your mods? Thanks a lot

    Note: basically what i messed with 1.90 is the unit_table, unit_land_stat_table, kvrule, kvfatigue, kvmorale, battle_entities, building_units_allowed, projectile_table, unit_special_abilities, unit-to-unit-junctions-tables, units-to-exclusive-persmission-table, unit-to-grouping table.

  19. #109
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vuvihu View Post
    hi Davinci,
    Can you please describe the crash that u fixed in 1.92? I'm making a personal mod based on 1.90, everything works fine but 60 turns into my Oda campaign, I have 2 CTDs, which happens when Hojo's and Uesugi's capital are taken by another AI faction. Do you ever experience something like your mods? Thanks a lot

    Note: basically what i messed with 1.90 is the unit_table, unit_land_stat_table, kvrule, kvfatigue, kvmorale, battle_entities, building_units_allowed, projectile_table, unit_special_abilities, unit-to-unit-junctions-tables, units-to-exclusive-persmission-table, unit-to-grouping table.
    Unlucky situation, when you create submods on this base, as CA patched their files and i reacted on them in this release-phase ;)
    First 1.92 is bugfree in regard of compatibility with vanilla, i think (hope), so my advice is to use that version for submod-trials.
    Critical files are: unit_table, building_units_allowed and corresponding ones.

    Generally the in-campaign crashes can have multiple reasons, maybe even vanilla culprits.
    As of yet, i didn't play 60 turns into the campaign with 1.92 ... no time atm. for such undertakings, i plan to do that though soon, when i have done an internal v1.93.

    EDIT

    Actually, if you intend to use S2R+ as base for your own modding, i recommend to wait on my final v2.0 as a serious result-mod, as S2R+ is currently in development, a beta - until this, perhaps use the time to exercise your modding skills.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-23-2011 at 21:10.
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  20. #110

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    thanks for your reply
    i was able to fix that CTD. I updated the vanilla game and then reinstalled my personal mod. I know that might create other problems but at least i can get through that end turn without a CTD.
    anyways, I got a little suggestion for your mod regarding the fatigue system. from what I see in the db, what you tried to make units tire less quickly is to make all of them having "good stamina" trait. In my mod, I increased the fatigue threshold and tweaked other variables (non-combat variables) in kv-fatigue and it worked pretty well.
    also, i don't know if you have fixed this in post-1.90 releases or not, but in 1.90 non-clan specific naginata ashigaru can't be recruited in the campaign. i think there's a row missing in building-units-allowed table.
    just my two cents
    Last edited by vuvihu; 05-23-2011 at 21:14.

  21. #111
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vuvihu View Post
    thanks for your reply
    i was able to fix that CTD. I updated the vanilla game and then reinstalled my personal mod. I know that might create other problems but at least i can get through that end turn without a CTD.
    anyways, I got a little suggestion for your mod regarding the fatigue system. from what I see in the db, what you tried to make units tire less quickly is to make all of them having "good stamina" trait. In my mod, I increased the fatigue threshold and tweaked other variables (non-combat variables) in kv-fatigue and it worked pretty well.
    also, i don't know if you have fixed this in post-1.90 releases or not, but in 1.90 non-clan specific naginata ashigaru can't be recruited in the campaign. i think there's a row missing in building-units-allowed table.
    just my two cents
    Bold: That was my choice, because i wanna weaken the minor factions which "try" to steamroll the map ;) (try = do) ... see changelog(s).
    First since 1.92, the major factions have a "viewable" better stand compared to minor factions (which partly start with 2 regions and major's only with 1 region) in campaign, this is done via diverse tweaks.

    EDIT

    My camp balancing goal is indeed to have the (playable) major factions (not all of them) as the major players who gain the upperhand. I hate it to see if Shimazu, Oda etc. is wiped out by non-playable (= less prominent) minor factions.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-23-2011 at 21:32.
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  22. #112

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Yeah in my current 1.90 Oda campaign (i dont change anything AI-related or have other gameplay mods other than realm divide), other major factions are doing pretty well, only Mori was defeated by a minor clan, all other clans are having at least 4-5 regions. Uesugi at one point was having like 8 regions and beating the crap outta anyone around until me, hojo, data and the light blue clan right by ikko ikki team up against them.

    but one thing in your mod that i think should be tweaked is the CAI agressiveness. I think the CAI is a bit over-aggressive. For example, Shimazu and shoni, who were my trading partners with friendly relationship, all of sudden made a naval invasion across half the country on me. I did not see this kind of naval invasions in my previous campaigns which I included hedge knight's UAI mod. Also, still very often the AI go on offensive and leave their only region unprotected and get destroyed easily.

  23. #113
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    V 1.93 uploaded.
    Many building and technology tweaks, and another added unit.

    but one thing in your mod that i think should be tweaked is the CAI agressiveness. I think the CAI is a bit over-aggressive. For example, Shimazu and shoni, who were my trading partners with friendly relationship, all of sudden made a naval invasion across half the country on me. I did not see this kind of naval invasions in my previous campaigns which I included hedge knight's UAI mod. Also, still very often the AI go on offensive and leave their only region unprotected and get destroyed easily.
    UAI seems to make it too easy then - imo. AI shall be active, also via naval invasion, and esp. if it is a western clan vs. an eastern clan (as it was in history), equal if a trade contract is present or not.
    Ie. if Shimazu attacks Oda (esp. if Oda is the human player) is a very welcome event, i won't try to reduce this, as those were major players in history in the west vs. east alliance.

    For me important is the other thing, the AI behaviour leaving home capitals unprotected, here i'll try to improve the AI behaviour.
    For upcoming v1.94 i plan to add/modify some more CAI files. Version 1.95-2.0 will be further final adjustments.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-25-2011 at 23:00.
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  24. #114
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    V 1.94 uploaded.
    One more faction-specific unit added, and CAI balancing.
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  25. #115
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    V 1.95 uploaded.
    Ikko Ikki dlc compatibility verified.
    Else, see changelog.

    In the changelog i didn't mention every balancing detail, but important to know is perhaps that Oda's Yari Ashigaru is reduced from 320 -> 300 men.
    This is another wip version for the campaign balancing ... the final S2R+ version is near (v2.0) ... due to this i will provide a thread on TWC again, just to getting bit more feedback for the remaining 5 modding updates.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-28-2011 at 04:53.
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  26. #116

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Hi Dav, just wondering, are you the DaVinci modder/beta who works @ SoW: Gettysburg? :) (Same nick so just asking)

    Congratulations for your S2R+ mod, it's really an outstanding and yet simple job. One could not believe just one such small file can do so many miracles. :)
    Let's begin with the feedback:

    1) Check the portrait of the new ashigaru units in the Warriors Recruited report. When you recruit multiple units (Quartermaster's report) all the portraits are smaller and OK but when you only recruit ONE of the new ashigaru units in the Warriors Recruited report the big portrait is empty. Weird, the same portrait, though smaller, is perfectly visible if the unit is recruited with others but when you recruit just one sword ashigaru, for example, its single portrait in the report doesn't appear.

    2) I think the samurai unit numbers should be smaller when compared to ashigaru but only very slightly so because you already gave a very good figure in comparative numbers. However, the garrison numbers in castles are quite higher than I had expected. The archers for example, should be half the size of a field unit.

    3) Conversely, I recommend tuning down the maximum experience achievable by each unit. Remember that by altering the armor factors you have created very tough units to kill. With high experience, some of these superunits just won't die and we'll see 300 vs 10 with the 10 fighting forever without routing 9) I think routing speed should be increased so as the routers can flee and escape pursuit, technically they throw away everything and run as fast as they can for their lives while pursuers don't because the battle isn't over yet for them).
    This is a bit ... unrealistic. I'm sure you get my meaning. Do mind that there are more modifiers than just the experience:
    Arts
    Buildings
    General's command
    General's retainers
    Equipment
    Experience

    ... and these all add to making the units go super. I think it's important to note that your maximum number of units capping is a GREAT idea. This totally forces the player to merge units (CTL-M) to eventually release a new recruiting slot if a unit is depleted... though unfortunately the engine mixes units of different experience which is VERY BAD. However, since there's ALSO a very slow replenishing rate (which is another GREAT idea of yours) I recommend INCREASING the threshold at which a unit is completely disbanded when taking losses. I'd say when 66% of losses are reached the unit should be auto disbanded after combat. Right now I've had units of 80 men survive 80% losses... bad.
    That also adds to the difficulty of keeping a soldier alive (hence a group of elite soldiers with replenishment of THEIR skill and experience) during Sengoku Jidai (no modern surgeons and a wound could put a soldier out of commission even without killing him. Then there's diseases, natural death and so on...).
    It is after all aimed to be as realistic as possible and units that get too modified from their initial value tend to mess up with parameters that can't be touched until unrealistic results come in (i.e. cavs winning in woods and vs spears). These results are already in... prior to S2R+, it's vanilla design.

    4) Let the Campaign AI work more towards vassalization which doesn't alter the perceiving of epansionism as much as conquering a whole clan completely. With the AI vassals in place, there's more room for diplomacy and trading, else in 10 yrs time Japan is already conquered by 4 or 5 major clans while in reality many of these clans vassalized their subjects instead of conquering them.

    5) CAI should most certainly garrison its castles better instead of relying on the structure garrisons... especially if they are at war, their border castles should be HEAVILY garrisoned. With Shimazu this is particularly evident because after you conquer Buzen, you can take Tsukushima and Hizen in the next 2 turns (1 turn each). High garrisoning should prevent so many riots taking place... I don't know how but you can see in the small maps regions going white and becoming rebel very often. Sometimes old clans reappear... this is fine but not so often. If the AI is taught to garrison better, some major clans won't die soon (check note on siege discipline later this + that helps a lot).

    6) Battlefield AI should keep the general in good health for as long as humanly possible. If the general dies, the whole army dies and that doesn't help the AI. If the general commits in battle, once the battle is going bad, he should retreat and call for the retreat instead of getting everyone slaughtered because that's how it worked (mind that if you fix the routing speed only the player's cavalry can catch the routers and that's not the main force in an army so that AI's army will really live to fight another day instead of being killed stupidly). Perhaps a GOOD help with this can come with the decrease of the General's morale... so that once his unit's losses become heavy he will rout, taking the army with him (and thus, saving it). Prority here for the AI is to keep the army on the field. If its castles are safe (and garrisoned) it will be good to fight another day, otherwise everything is ALWAYS lost in just 1 battle because it takes long to build a second army from scrap.

    7) BAI should commit cavalry units much sooner than it actually does during offensive sieges. As it stands now, missile goes for the fight only when ammo is exhausted (and this is correct) but cavalry dismounts and engages only when everyone else is dead. BAI should already have taken the choice to lift the siege at this time instead of dismounting and sending the cavalry (including the general!) to sure death in a siege that can't be won. Let the cavalry dismount and engage along with the infantry but keep the general safe, again as above, the army must live to fight another day instead of dying silly. You can't always ask to win or die trying. It only happened when it REALLY was a matter of life or death to win that particular battle.

    8) CAI should keep the siege intact on the offense unless it has at least double the numbers of the defender. Conversely, if the CAI is besieged, don't make it sally out unless there's really a VERY reasonable chance to win. In this case, sallying out means fighting on the offensive while the defender camps on the hills. The AI should think: I better stay in and wait for reinforcements... at least as long as I am in he's not at advantage, let him come and storm the walls. CAI does seem to understand whether it can win or lose much better than in Vanilla so I think you have done a good job already.

    9) It appears to me the autoresolve battle button gives the player a fair advantage over the AI, especially during offensive sieges I rarely really lose when I know if I sieged manually I would. Take action in this field as well. :)
    (confirmed, I take ultra heavy losses when storming structures so the calculation of the autoresolve is a bit too light during sieges)

    10) In order to simulate that ashigaru where arms stripped from agriculture while samurai were the soldier class, I propose to downgrade the recruiting costs and upkeep costs of samurai (they were already born with the sword in hand and trained, besides they were no mercenaries) by (for example) 25% while increasing both the recruiting costs and upkeep costs of ashigaru (more training needed and recruiting the masses meant hurting the economy). That perfectly fits in a system with limited number of samurai units on the field: bigger ashi army cost more then and takes longer to train but it's more numerous in numbers though less combat effective while samurai are instantly recruited, they cost less and pay less upkeep but are very limited in numbers (both unit numbers and number of units) so they are key units.

    11) Last one, I promise... lol. It feels great you can't upgrade the trails to build roads until the first Tech is mastered, however the tooltip is missing from the icon on the construction options (i.e. required art not mastered). Then, after you build the roads, you can also build the next road level (posts & trade). I think you should be able to build them only after mastering the NEXT art level (todofuken, IIRC).

    Trust me as one of your greatest supporters, DaV and rest assured that feedback will keep coming. :)

    PS 1st level road upgrade now shows the icon when you need the art. Keep note on "doing 2nd art before 2nd level road is possible). ;)
    Last edited by GShock; 05-29-2011 at 11:33. Reason: forgot 9) and 10) then added 11) fixed some spelling

  27. #117
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Release & Discussion Thread

    Hello, wow, such a big feedback post ... i'll try to react with the time, bear with me i have only sometimes time for that. I'll use this post here (updating it).

    No, i'm not a modder for a Gettysburg mod, who carries my nick? I wear that nick since 2005 on all TW forums.

    Re 1) Unit cards: I'm using always a unit card mod (one of the many), and haven't experienced ever such issues.
    Re 3) Exp points: Well, yes and thanks, that is a very reasonable point. I'll look where maximum exp points are managed and will limit that (if possible technically).
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-30-2011 at 04:56.
    TWC Wiki: List of TW Modding Contributions 2005-2011
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  28. #118
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    V 1.96 uploaded. A breakthrough version.

    I think i have finally fulfilled my self-proclaimed mission to getting the key factions Shimazu, Mori and Oda in the game.
    This is done without a script file, just pure db file balancing. In my recent playtest (always using Chosokabe on H/H, long campaign, ultra unit size), at spring 1549 these three key factions were on a very good shape: (the map in the whole looked pretty good)

    Oda has wiped out Tokugawa, Saito and Imagawa, also Hattori was destroyed (by Tsutsui and Oda), and is the most powerful faction at this point besides Hojo (both 5-6 regions), Ikko Ikki looks good as well so far i could view.
    Shimazu just wiped out Ito and owns now 3 regions.
    Mori has conquered one northern region of Amako and owns 2 regions, hope is there they can hold that (or even expand).

    In effect though, vice versa, if a human player chooses to play Oda, Shimazu or Mori, he'll have of course an easier game.

    Btw., atm. i don't use the RealmDivide mod or any other gameplay mod, except the unit speed reduction mod (which is a must-have mod).
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-30-2011 at 05:11.
    TWC Wiki: List of TW Modding Contributions 2005-2011
    Release 12.2012: Third Age TW Realism+
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  29. #119

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Downloading as we speak the latest version.

    Figure out my tests are done with Shimazu on Hard short campaign and I have no other mods but yours.
    I would like to know the list of the mods you are using so I can install them and test the same game you have.

    Take into account the importance of making the AI vassalize more in view of trade, treasons and the implied intervention of the main clan if the vassal is attacked. After merely 15 yrs of war there's just really 5 or 6 major clans on the map in 1.95 and that's not good (though it's almost NEVER the same clans). It is likely that if the AI takes care of defense before attacking someone else it will be harder to wipe out a faction, any faction, and the minor clans should do the somersaults to ally to their most powerful neighbors (you mess with me, you'll mess with the big boy behind me too!). I think it's a matter of logics more than DB. You can buff a faction but if its home castle is destroyed because it is left ungarrisoned that won't save that faction.

    If you can really take care of these 2 things, everything will go better.

    As of the Exp points, look at the archery dojo. The sam unit is already better than the ashi unit but also starts with more XP. Basically, an overall decrease of the starting XP points should keep things balanced and they will remain balanced if units are removed from the game once they reach 66% losses (with less than that the player is still forced to keep them behind to replenish otherwise they will be lost so it's very good you decreased the replenishment rates).

    So in summary, imho the priorities should go to siege/sally credible % of success before enterprising the action, diplomacy more vassalization (losing AI clan should offer to be vassal to winning AI clan and winning AI clan should accept more often because a vassal is less threatening to the other clans than that faction conquering the whole Japan), more alliances, better understanding of the importance of garrisoning the castles: you can't attack if your very existence as clan is in danger.

  30. #120
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by GShock View Post
    Downloading as we speak the latest version.

    Figure out my tests are done with Shimazu on Hard short campaign and I have no other mods but yours.
    I would like to know the list of the mods you are using so I can install them and test the same game you have.

    Take into account the importance of making the AI vassalize more in view of trade, treasons and the implied intervention of the main clan if the vassal is attacked. After merely 15 yrs of war there's just really 5 or 6 major clans on the map in 1.95 and that's not good (though it's almost NEVER the same clans). It is likely that if the AI takes care of defense before attacking someone else it will be harder to wipe out a faction, any faction, and the minor clans should do the somersaults to ally to their most powerful neighbors (you mess with me, you'll mess with the big boy behind me too!). I think it's a matter of logics more than DB. You can buff a faction but if its home castle is destroyed because it is left ungarrisoned that won't save that faction.

    If you can really take care of these 2 things, everything will go better.

    As of the Exp points, look at the archery dojo. The sam unit is already better than the ashi unit but also starts with more XP. Basically, an overall decrease of the starting XP points should keep things balanced and they will remain balanced if units are removed from the game once they reach 66% losses (with less than that the player is still forced to keep them behind to replenish otherwise they will be lost so it's very good you decreased the replenishment rates).

    So in summary, imho the priorities should go to siege/sally credible % of success before enterprising the action, diplomacy more vassalization (losing AI clan should offer to be vassal to winning AI clan and winning AI clan should accept more often because a vassal is less threatening to the other clans than that faction conquering the whole Japan), more alliances, better understanding of the importance of garrisoning the castles: you can't attack if your very existence as clan is in danger.
    You have some good thoughts and ideas. Some are not easy to achieve ;)

    As for the exp theme i indeed would prefer a file that can limit the exp gaining in the whole, so units can ie. get 5 or 6 points maximum. I'll search for a file. Otherwise if this is not possible, i think about it to limit the exp via buildings by 1 point for all building upgrades and technology. Also i might like to reduce the exp gaining via battle.

    After merely 15 yrs of war there's just really 5 or 6 major clans on the map
    Well, 15 years is after all 60 turns, a lot happens there on such a small designed Japan map. I also would prefer a forth and back war of regions lost and won. That's a very hard part for a balancing job, you know.
    Now as i gave the major clans Oda, Shimazu (and also Mori) extraordinary support to keep them in the game, besides that other major clans have some extras as well, it is unlikely that minor factions can survive for longer than 15 years, i think so, even if diplomacy and CAI modding is done. What i did also via CAI modding is, that minor factions are more passive now ... more on the defense side of AI behaviour, while the playable major factions remain active but also i gave them more caution for defense. The non-playable "minor" factions are divided in two branches, the real "peaceful" factions and the in-between factions, the latter ones are still between passive and active. Actually it was my goal to get the playable major factions out of the looser-street, i believe i achieved that now.

    As i'm a history addict to some degree, for me it is actually very important to have historical major clans in the game, which get the upperhand, in the best case it is an Oda-led "east alliance" vs. a Shimazu-led "west-alliance". But i also would not like it, if Oda and Shimazu can steamroll the map too easy, too quick ... 15 years with about 5-6 clans, well, at this year it should become slowly hard to have enough units for a faction to control the regions, as i limited the units quite strict, except for Yari Ashigaru, but also they will be empty some day. This is done by intention, so at one point in the game the remaining factions have issues to keep their regions properly controlled - i'm interested to see playtests, when this becomes relevant, maybe i shall limit Yari Ashigaru more? Also i might like to include some tweaks which can decrease the repression rates (what i have done already here and there, maybe i need to increase late unrest factors), and rebellions occur eventually in the later game?

    However, i'll tweak some codes, ie. i think i can nerf Oda and Shimazu and also Ikko Ikki unit abilities a bit now, have to look then that they still play well in the campaign.
    Also i'll try to increase the help ally percentage, in the hope factions won't let their main settlement(s) alone to help an ally. The care for protecting settlements and regions is already tweaked a lot, more is hardly possible because it would go on the cost of army activity (attacking other regions) and i guess the AI behaviour is also somehow hardcoded in this regard, ie. i saw Shimazu very often letting their home capital unprotected (while facing Ito as neighbor with quite some units) although they should have enough money to recruit lots of units and keeping them in the castle, they didn't and lost it ... recently, i just found a workaround which ensures that Shimazu (and Oda) expand and can't loose their starting region in the 1st turns vs. AI enemies ... lol... i have beaten the damn S2 engine, or in other words the odd CA start-situation balance.


    As for my additional used mods, check out the Compatibility thread here, i listed them all, which i use, but as for gameplay mods, atm. it is only the speed reduction mod, graphic mods have no impact on the gameplay. While i wanna use soon the Extended Victory Year mod, the 1620 thing with long campaign.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 05-30-2011 at 08:41.
    TWC Wiki: List of TW Modding Contributions 2005-2011
    Release 12.2012: Third Age TW Realism+
    Release 04.2013: Rise of the Samurai Realism+


    Support: Greenpeace
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    What's really more disappointing than dis-information and non-education?
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