Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

[DaVinci]

Patch version 2.6 uploaded.

[TylerX5]

I know I mentioned cannons a while ago, but I've still have yet to use them in the campaign, mainly because I never accept Nanban trade. According to the historical info about cannons in the sengoku period japanese gunsmiths were making their own cannons towards the later part of the 16th century. Can you make cannons recruitable at arsenals? Also i rarely see any AI faction have gunpowder units above ashigaru tenpo, do you notice this too?

p.s. thanks for keeping up your dedication to this mod! I've put in over 200hrs in the game (and still haven't beaten it once) and I still feel like its getting bigger, better, and more complete. C.A. made a fine house no doubting that, but you are making it a home

[DaVinci]

I know I mentioned cannons a while ago, but I've still have yet to use them in the campaign, mainly because I never accept Nanban trade. According to the historical info about cannons in the sengoku period japanese gunsmiths were making their own cannons towards the later part of the 16th century. Can you make cannons recruitable at arsenals? Also i rarely see any AI faction have gunpowder units above ashigaru tenpo, do you notice this too?

p.s. thanks for keeping up your dedication to this mod! I've put in over 200hrs in the game (and still haven't beaten it once) and I still feel like its getting bigger, better, and more complete. C.A. made a fine house no doubting that, but you are making it a home

Never played so far, that the Samurai Teppo becomes available.

Yes, i have just made two different cannon units: One nanban (import, nanban quarter), one japanese (arsenal), both need though the kanabukama building to ensure they are really rare and late; for the next update.

[Gervasi]

As this mod is aimed to reflect a realistic experience I would like to make some remarks about army composition. The severe restriction in Samurai recruiting really bugged me. It is of course true, that during Sengoku Jidai the Ashigaru became more and more prominent and their role in special weapon squads (namely, archers, arquebus and spearman) was very important. However, looking at different accounts of troop composition and battleorders the Samurai were still the backbone and main fighting force, especially in the vanguard, whilst Ashigaru were considered support troops. As an example, Shimazu Iehisa´s personal guard would consist of : 456 dismounted and 130 mounted samurai, 300 Arquebus, 200 archer and 200 spearman (Ashigaru)+ another 300 or so purely support troops like shield or flag bearers.
So, while armies would have a high percentage of Ashigaru, a huge chunk of them would not be fighting troops, but support. Furthermore Spearman would mainly be used for defensive purposes, protecting the ranks of Ashigaru Archers from enemy cavalry.

Part of the problem is ofcourse the whole system of tactical engagement in Shogun 2, which doesn´t reflect Japanese tactics. Drawing troopes in one big line and engaging with spearashigaru while trying to outflank does not seem very authentic.

I also believe that having different troop sizes already reflects good for the historic troop composition (even if you have 50/50 ashigaru samurai in units, you would have many more ashigaru if you counted heads)

It really bugged me, that I could only recruit yari ashigaru in lategame, which leads to having european like battles, with pikeman engaging opposing pikeman instead of being used for defencive purposes, it is also highly unlikely that in case of a siegeattack those poor yari ashigaru with 4meter and longerg pikes would have to scale the castlewalls because of a lack of samurai to do that (how would you carry a 4,5 meter spear while climbing a steep slope and being shot at, i wonder.....)

My conclusion: For realisms sake I would still allow for decent numbers of Samurai troops, whose variety in appearance is well reflected in different weapon types but at the same time would put stronger emphasis on Ashigaru missile troops, especially late in the period there would be huge ammounts of Arquebus deployed. The use of Yari Ashigaru however is a more ambiguous topic and as it is done in the moment doesn´t reflect samurai warfare but much more the european way of engagement where knights have alredy been rendered obsolete after 1500.

Thats my opinion of the matter, no offence intendet :)

[GShock]

The problem of unit capping is of no easy solution but at any rate I personally think the samurai unit numbers are perfectly fitting.
As far as I understand the mechanics of S2, you can't impose a cap on a building or a province but it must be imposed "beforehand" at the clan stage. So you select a global pool where each clan has a limited number of each unit type and then it's up to the player or AI to expand the domain so that more troops become available because of specialty buildings allowing them.

It does seem pretty unrealistic that you can recruit an ashigaru naginata where the blacksmith is and you can't recruit him at the bordering province... however, if you look closely at the unit stats, you will see the yari ashigaru inaka are so crappy that they lose even to the light cavalry. This means it's up to you to build a balanced army and put each unit where it should be during battle whereas the problem remains for the AI since with all the buildings' restrictions, it can't recruit all the types in one single province but just the type(s) allowed by the buildings present there.

I am more for a system like TROM3 with the AOR recruitment because this allows you to taylor 2 things: 1) Expansion: you can recruit in the new provinces the troops that come from those territories. 2) Population: You HAVE TO 1) because your "native troops" are limited in numbers (big guy has more troops than small guy!).
TROM3 has a major disadvantage in the fact you can recruit ONE local samurai unit (unit caps are very present there too) but I think in these regards, S2r+ should evolve this way.

Still... when the tech tree progresses you'll see more and more ashigaru coming, especially the teppo. Unfortunately, the mod can't do miracles.

BTW Iehisa's personal guard is something, his army... something else. ;)

[Gervasi]

Later accounts of the Tokugawa army show a composition of approximately 1/3 Arquebus&Archers, 1/3 Spear and 1/3 Samurai (mounted and dismounted) + loads of servants.
However in this mod you can ONLY recruit yari ashigaru (to scale castle walls etc.) if at least I could recruit some Archers to reflect a 1/3 ratio of each unit type. I juist looked at my ingame armies and probably my main concerne is the lack of ranged units. I can´t recruit Yumi Ashigaru which i find odd, and considering the year 1575 I should deffinately be able to recruit more Arquebus units (more than 3*80 in about 10 provinces)

[DaVinci]

However in this mod you can ONLY recruit yari ashigaru (to scale castle walls etc.) if at least I could recruit some Archers to reflect a 1/3 ratio of each unit type. I juist looked at my ingame armies and probably my main concerne is the lack of ranged units. I can´t recruit Yumi Ashigaru which i find odd, and considering the year 1575 I should deffinately be able to recruit more Arquebus units (more than 3*80 in about 10 provinces)

Honestly i don't know what you are playing there, if you have a bow dojo you are able to recruit archers, if you have the according dojo, you are able to recruit the according Samurai units ... "in this mod you can ONLY recruit yari ashigaru" ... wtf you are talking about?
I believe your install is somehow wrong, perhaps mixed with other mods.

You are mentioning historical accounts of faction army consistences ... note, that S2R+ is not an accurate history simulation, it's what the opener thread says: A combination of realism and gameplay design.
And for example in regard of historical realism in the environment and design of Tokugawa, there is a focus on Oda making a good play (vs. vanilla design), in consequence on the costs of Tokugawa. If you want a lot of Teppo units you must play Oda.

However, upcoming update will contain a lot alterations again.