International Court...slow, but on the right track?

[Sarmatian]

I am curious to hear what some locals think of all this (Sarmatian is a Serb, do we have any Bosnians or Croats here?).

About what? This particular verdict, international court in general, the war, war crimes... ?

Those who set up those courts don't like when their allies get convicted of war crimes, it makes them look bad...

[Jaguara]

About what? This particular verdict, international court in general, the war, war crimes... ?

Those who set up those courts don't like when their allies get convicted of war crimes, it makes them look bad...

How about if we focus on the court itself, it's verdict, and the way ahead? I would rather not dig up the nitty gritty and tit-for-tat of the war(s), unless they are neccessary to make a relevant point.

I would hope that in time the International court can gain strength and credability to the point where the ends can no longer justify the means. If the court dies, then we are back to the victors and the powerful punishing only the losers, while they go on in impunity.

I am encouraged that these were Croats, and I am hoping that it was not just a token. It is essential that the court be able to act independantly, and not just be a tool of, oh I don't know...the US?

[Sarmatian]

How about if we focus on the court itself, it's verdict, and the way ahead? I would rather not dig up the nitty gritty and tit-for-tat of the war(s), unless they are neccessary to make a relevant point.

I would hope that in time the International court can gain strength and credability to the point where the ends can no longer justify the means. If the court dies, then we are back to the victors and the powerful punishing only the losers, while they go on in impunity.

I am encouraged that these were Croats, and I am hoping that it was not just a token. It is essential that the court be able to act independantly, and not just be a tool of, oh I don't know...the US?

Hmm, it is a complicated issue. People are moving on, that's definitely happening. There's a joint basketball league, there's talk of a joint football league (it's going slower because of the various mobsters wannabe who aren't keen on relinquishing control), Big Brother reality show for the first hosted people from all countries that used to make up Yugoslavia, traveling isn't longer complicated - you don't need visas and in most cases you don't a passport, an ID is enough. Bussinesses are picking up, although Croats still tend not to allow Serbian companies or Serbian products on the Croatian market but I believe it'll get better. Current Croatian president seems a reasonable man but the government is a bit too much nationalistic for my taste. So, all in all, things are looking up indeed.

Now, how much is that because of the courts... IMHO, not much, if any. One might say it is in spite of courts. Serbs tend to see themselves as being singled out and victimized, Croats and Bosnian muslims generally hate when any of theirs end up in the court because it's a stain on their heroic, against-the-odds, purely defensive war.

General incompetence of the courts doesn't help either. Vojislav Seselj, who is a Serbian ultra nationalist spent more than half a decade in the Hague without being indicted. I'm naturally not a fan of his, but there isn't a court in the civilized world which could keep a man in jail for six or seven years without indicting him. It doesn't really speak well of a court when it first locks someone up and then spend a decade looking for the reason why.

When Bosnia sued Serbia for genocide, court ruled that there was a genocide, that Serbia didn't commit genocide and that Serbia was guilty of not preventing it. How can you take seriosly a court after a verdict like that, devoid of sense and logic?

I myself am quite disillusioned by all this. In my opinion these aren't courts but a tool of the great powers (read: US & co at the moment) to have a legal excuse for anything they might do.

[Brenus]

And what about the one who help Gotovina and the Croats?
The nones who trained. rearmed and facilitated the offensive in destroying all Serbian Air Defence and Communication Centers, who enforced Deny Fly against the Serbian Air Force (4 Galebs shot down the day before by two F-16) but allowed Croatians to heliport troops and the Croatian Air Force to strike against civilians?
What about the fact that Knin was, as Sebrenica, the UN Protected (safe) Area?
I don't know why suddenly the Court decided that Gotovina was guilty. He is. But as much as Oric and others war criminals.
And probably less that the Kosova KLA commanders, in term of abomination...

[HoreTore]

It's critical for the court to prosecute croatians, bosnians and albanians in addition to the serbs.

Not just because of the crimes committed, but because by doing so, we might finally get rid of that intolerable non-stop bitching and whining coming from Serbia.

I don't support war. I don't support nuclear strikes. But my resistance to nuking Serbia diminishes everytime I hear one of them bitch and whine about "the international community". I'm starting to believe that elevated levels of nationalist whining should justify nuclear strikes....

[Sarmatian]

Not just because of the crimes committed, but because by doing so, we might finally get rid of that intolerable non-stop bitching and whining coming from Serbia.

So it's working. Good to know, good to know...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Excellent tribunal, good to see these people convicted. Ideally, one would hope a tribunal, or at least a truth and reconcilliation committe, can be organised by and held within the country itself. But that is only possible after a change of regime, after an ideological shift. This is not at all the case in Croatia, which is run by the very perpetrators. Justice shall have to be the product of international pressure and international courts then.

[HoreTore]

So it's working. Good to know, good to know...

At this point, it's like watching a rerun of paradise hotel that never ends.

[Jaguara]

Hmm, it is a complicated issue. People are moving on, that's definitely happening. There's a joint basketball league, there's talk of a joint football league (it's going slower because of the various mobsters wannabe who aren't keen on relinquishing control), Big Brother reality show for the first hosted people from all countries that used to make up Yugoslavia, traveling isn't longer complicated - you don't need visas and in most cases you don't a passport, an ID is enough. Bussinesses are picking up, although Croats still tend not to allow Serbian companies or Serbian products on the Croatian market but I believe it'll get better. Current Croatian president seems a reasonable man but the government is a bit too much nationalistic for my taste. So, all in all, things are looking up indeed.

Now, how much is that because of the courts... IMHO, not much, if any. One might say it is in spite of courts. Serbs tend to see themselves as being singled out and victimized, Croats and Bosnian muslims generally hate when any of theirs end up in the court because it's a stain on their heroic, against-the-odds, purely defensive war.

Though it was not the main topic, I am really pleased that you shared this. I knew some Bosnian war refugees who came to Canada. They were not anti-Serb, they were anti-war. As is typical over here, after the shooting stops, the press forget about it. So, I have heard very little since the Kosovo thing.

I particularly liked your line "in spite of the courts". At this point, where they have taken SO long to rule on these things, one might wonder if it is only reopening old wounds. I definately think these things have to find a way to be expedited.

The impression I had gotten was that the local courts were the ones who were being so biased (for example courts in Croatia not charging or releasing Croats, while persecuting all Serbs with a vengance.). Is the international court any better?

The court was definately used as a tool by the US. In the same way the UN as a whole was. The US has become so critical of the UN only because it has been slowly becoming an institution on it's own, and can no longer be effectively controlled by the US. (It can be hindered - a la veto - but they do not dominate it's policies as they once did.) My perception is that in time, the international courts have slowly been becoming more independant, and less willing to bend to pressure. If this trend continues, even slowly, I would think that there is hope that in time they could become a fair arbiter.