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Thread: The Development of Democratic Institutions in Arab Culture

  1. #31

    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    his [PJ] evidence as far as i'm aware is only backed up by 2 books he linked but failed to reference, and when pressed he produced a bunch of links that were already of dubious quality, if i had to link to think tank based websites i'd produce a whole page myself.
    Here's a quick rundown of what happened, just so you're not confused. Out of the paragraphs and paragraphs of easily verifiable information I've written in this thread, you picked out one sentence that was obviously my educated opinion. If it wasn't obvious, I told you it was my opinion in no uncertain terms. Still you demanded sourcing, so I found you multiple sources from multiple intellectuals dated from 1995 to 2010 who share the opinion that there are deep rooted structural issues in Arab society that are holding back modernization. You seemed intent not on discussing the issue, but attacking the credibility of the sources, zeroing in on two of them claiming some neo-Conservative bias, despite the fact the authors were arguing against neo-Conservative dogma. (You may want to do a bit more research on Freedom House - it has been in existence far longer than the neocon movement itself.)

    Then, when asked to provide some counter-sources yourself - which is not at all hard to do (Here you go, Banquo) - you gave one commentary, one book by an admitted polemicist and 9/11 Truther who only came to prominence after he was recommended by Osama bin Laden (how's that for a questionable source?), and a link to Salon.com - not a specific article on Salon, just Salon.com.

    Here are some more sources that may be of some interest. Each of them discuss various structural issues within Arab culture and civil society that impede modernization. As I said much earlier in this thread, revolution is the easiest part of a democratic transition. The Arab Spring will have to contend with and overcome these issues if it is to become a truly democratic movement and not one of dozens of Arab revolutions that have ended in authoritarian rule.

    Civil Society in the Arab World: The Missing Concept

    The Islamic Shield: Arab Resistance to Democratic and Religious Reforms

    Civil Society and the Democratization in the Arab World

    Civil Society and Democratization in the Arab World: The Dynamics of Activism (Not the same as the one above.)

    And, gasp, a book from the '90s that I read several years ago and is just as relevant today as it was when published.

    Neopatriarchy: A Theory of Distorted Change in Arab Society

    Focusing on the region of the Arab world--comprising some two hundred million people and twenty-one sovereign states extending from the Atlantic to the Persian Gulf--this book develops a theory of social change that demystifies the setbacks this region has experienced on the road to transformation. Professor Sharabi pinpoints economic, political, social, and cultural changes in the last century that led the Arab world, as well as other developing countries, not to modernity but to neopatriarchy--a modernized form of patriarchy. He shows how authentic change was blocked and distorted forms and practices subsequently came to dominate all aspects of social existence and activity--among them militant religious fundamentalism, an ideology symptomatic of neopatriarchal culture. Presenting itself as the only valid option, Muslim fundamentalism now confronts the elements calling for secularism and democracy in a bitter battle whose outcome is likely to determine the future of the Arab world as well as that of other Muslim societies in Africa and Asia.
    Also, let me just say that I have tried to diffuse the situation by ignoring your ad hominems and providing you with sources that give some backing to my opinion. That hasn't worked, so allow me to pursue a more direct route. While I remain unchanged in my opinion, I do apologize if I've offended you. There was no racism meant in my comments, only a criticism of the dominant culture in the region which has adherents of many races. Obviously, I can travel a few hours North to Dearborn to see Arabs who have abandoned certain elements of their culture and successfully embraced the democratic process.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 04-15-2011 at 19:52.

  2. #32
    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Let us begin shall we:

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
    Here's a quick rundown of what happened, just so you're not confused. Out of the paragraphs and paragraphs of easily verifiable information I've written in this thread, you picked out one sentence that was obviously my educated opinion. If it wasn't obvious, I told you it was my opinion in no uncertain terms. Still you demanded sourcing, so I found you multiple sources from multiple intellectuals dated from 1995 to 2010 who share the opinion that there are deep rooted structural issues in Arab society that are holding back modernization. You seemed intent not on discussing the issue, but attacking the credibility of the sources, zeroing in on two of them claiming some neo-Conservative bias, despite the fact the authors were arguing against neo-Conservative dogma. (You may want to do a bit more research on Freedom House - it has been in existence far longer than the neocon movement itself.)
    The Freedom house publishes an annual report for the "free-est" countries, they still aren't really relevant. You mention your latest article to be November the 14th 2010, the arab spring happened in 2011, obviously it'll take years before actual democracy is attained, it is none the less a crucial movement for the countries involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
    Then, when asked to provide some counter-sources yourself - which is not at all hard to do (Here you go, Banquo) - you gave one commentary, one book by an admitted polemicist and 9/11 Truther who only came to prominence after he was recommended by Osama bin Laden (how's that for a questionable source?), and a link to Salon.com - not a specific article on Salon, just Salon.com.
    If you read my post properly, he asked for an anti-imperialist book, William Blum isn't a truther, he may sympathise or ask questions about government complacency but isn't really outright conspiracy theory of zionist engineered 9/11s or whatever the truther movement is about, being recommended by bin laden or hitler doesn't really matter either, that is just a red herring, the actual content of the book is meticulously sourced and documented, he even uses mainstream sources to argue his points.

    On the other hand your sources are actually neoconservative drivel, once again, looking through one of the Links, you linked the Middle East Quarterly, a website funded by the Middle East Forum, that actually only has one, yes one researcher on the middle east, rather shoddy work there, especially when the guy (Daniel Pipes) already got discredited by Christopher Hitchens and Juan Cole.

    "In 2002 Juan Cole, a professor of Middle Eastern history at the University of Michigan who has been a target of Campus Watch, criticized MEF in Salon magazine, writing that "The Middle East Forum is not really a forum. Somebody rich in the community has set Pipes up with a couple of offices and a fax machine and calls him a director." Salon noted that "aside from Pipes, the Middle East Forum has a single researcher, whose job, according to the Web site, extends into fundraising."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_...orum#Criticism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christo...ic_individuals <-- Scroll down to Daniel Pipes

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
    Here are some more sources that may be of some interest. Each of them discuss various structural issues within Arab culture and civil society that impede modernization. As I said much earlier in this thread, revolution is the easiest part of a democratic transition. The Arab Spring will have to contend with and overcome these issues if it is to become a truly democratic movement and not one of dozens of Arab revolutions that have ended in authoritarian rule.

    Civil Society in the Arab World: The Missing Concept

    The Islamic Shield: Arab Resistance to Democratic and Religious Reforms

    Civil Society and the Democratization in the Arab World

    Civil Society and Democratization in the Arab World: The Dynamics of Activism (Not the same as the one above.)

    And, gasp, a book from the '90s that I read several years ago and is just as relevant today as it was when published.

    Neopatriarchy: A Theory of Distorted Change in Arab Society
    This is hilarious, let me quote one racist gem:

    "Does Arab civil society actually exist? Is the increase in the number of registered civil society organizations (CSOs) an adequate indication of its existence?"

    the second question literally contradicts the first.

    Lets see what happens when you replace arab with jewish:

    "Does Jewish civil society actually exist? Is the increase in the number of registered civil society organizations (CSOs) an adequate indication of its existence?"

    Give me a good reason why i should even bother looking through the other links.
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  3. #33
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    So um... how long has it been since you guys been on topic?
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  4. #34

    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    This is hilarious, let me quote one racist gem:

    "Does Arab civil society actually exist? Is the increase in the number of registered civil society organizations (CSOs) an adequate indication of its existence?"

    the second question literally contradicts the first.
    I see you managed to read the first paragraph in the first link I provided. However, you seem to have missed the fact that it was written by an Arab, and apparently not a self-hating racist Arab either:

    Sa'ed Karajah is Senior Partner, Legal Counselor and Attorney at Law for Karajah & Associates Law Firm. Since 1996 Mr. Karajah has been involved in community development projects with UNICEF, Jordan River Foundation, Save the Children-Jordan, AMIDEAST and AMIR. He's worked throughout the Middle East, including in Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Dubai, Lebanon, and Yemen. Currently he is a board member on the Jordan River Foundation, one of the most prominent NGOs in the country. This NGO aims to provide opportunities for community development and protection of women and children. As a legal consultant Mr. Karajah has experience restructuring the Arab Center for Engineering & Consultations through EJADA and providing legal aid for other Arab intellectuals and artists. Other past experience includes assisting the Ministerial Committee with the draft of the Companies Law in cooperation with INTAJ, sitting on the governmental committee for reviewing legislation as a preface of Yemen’s membership in the WTO, and participating in a seminar on Civil Society and Rule of Law under the auspices of the Fredrich Nuamnn Foundation. Mr. Karajah has published a booklet on Establishing Civil Associations & Intellectual Property Rights of Arab Artists & Intellectuals, and under the sponsorship of ICNL is currently working on a research paper entitled, Civil Society in the Arab World: The Missing Concept.
    Allow me to also remind you of the rapidly diminishing returns involved in constantly playing the race card.

    Lets see what happens when you replace arab with jewish:

    "Does Jewish civil society actually exist? Is the increase in the number of registered civil society organizations (CSOs) an adequate indication of its existence?"
    What does happen? Where is the racism in that question?

    And for your information, it is called an establishing question, and is quite common in research papers. Before an author opines on the complexities of a given subject, he or she establishes a base line - the fundamentals the paper is based on.

    For example, if I were to write a paper about the benefits of hydrogen fuel cells in consumer vehicles, I might first ask if individual ownership of vehicles is truly necessary as opposed to public transportation.

    Give me a good reason why i should even bother looking through the other links.
    At this point, I'm not particularly concerned with what you do with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades
    So um... how long has it been since you guys been on topic?
    My fault and my apologies. It won't happen again.

  5. #35
    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    I see you managed to read the first paragraph in the first link I provided. However, you seem to have missed the fact that it was written by an Arab, and apparently not a self-hating racist Arab either:



    Allow me to also remind you of the rapidly diminishing returns involved in constantly playing the race card.



    What does happen? Where is the racism in that question?

    And for your information, it is called an establishing question, and is quite common in research papers. Before an author opines on the complexities of a given subject, he or she establishes a base line - the fundamentals the paper is based on.

    For example, if I were to write a paper about the benefits of hydrogen fuel cells in consumer vehicles, I might first ask if individual ownership of vehicles is truly necessary as opposed to public transportation.



    At this point, I'm not particularly concerned with what you do with them.



    My fault and my apologies. It won't happen again.
    Nice try, no really, who said anything about self hating, the research linked even sources a weird arabic dictionary and goes through mental gymnastics to tell me what Mujtama' Madanee in arabic means, which apparently isn't Civil Society, Because? (hint: arabic doesn't work like that) this is akin to linking pseudo-science.
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  6. #36
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Apologies for not breaking this discussion out of the Civil War in Libya thread earlier.

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  7. #37

    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    Nice try, no really, who said anything about self hating,
    That was my deduction, based on the logic that an Arab would have to be self hating to write racist anti-Arab literature....... which was all just a slightly more interesting way of suggesting the quote had no racist intentions as it was written by an Arab.

    How was the quote racist?


    Anyway, here is another interesting analysis of the situation.

    Civil society in authoritarian structures

    An important feature of the Arab state came into being by the penetration of civil society and the transformation of its institutions – educational, cultural, religious – that have become mere extensions of state apparatus-es. For example, under Egypt’s three military rulers, the officers’ corps has become almost a separate caste, living in their own enclosed world of subsidised housing and recreational facilities, just as political independence led to modern-day institutionalisation of families and social networks of tribes and religious or ethnic constellations. Contentious voices also resonate because the exclusionary structure of governance does not reflect the diversity of the population. Contrary to popular images, Arab societies are not homogeneous in ethnicity or religion (Hassan 1999).

    Gerber (1987), inspired by Barrington Moore,1 elaborates a series of hypotheses about the significance of the Ottoman rural structures, particularly the absence of a major landed aristocracy, for the nature of modern states, social transformation and revolutions in the Middle East. The absence of a landed upper class in the region up to 1900, and the weakness of this class when it finally did emerge, explains the absence of a coherent basis for the development of a democratic polity. The introduction of the Land Property Law in 1894 in Egypt is a case in point.2 The law was too arbitrary and lacked the time and space to develop and create a landed class equivalent to that of feudal nobility in Europe. This might explain the speed in implementing the land reform that was put forward by Nasser on July 1961.

    The meaning of the state in the day-to-day life of ordinary Arabs, and its absence in the discourse of politics, is important in this context. While the Arabic Maghreb3 countries are relatively homogeneous in religious terms, and while the state does not necessarily contradict with ethnic origin (ie, Arab and Berber) and religion, the Mashreq (the Arab world from Egypt eastward to the Arabian Peninsula, Syria and Iraq) is highly heterogeneous. Many diverse ethnic and religious groups inhabit the state with unmistakably parochial communal loyalties that are often in conflict with the loyalty demanded by the state. Thus, the projected image of the Arab regional system is one of bewildering complexity (Hermassi 1987).

    Every political crisis in the Arab world reveals the fragility of the state and its incoherent political institutions. The establishment of the state of Israel, the expulsion of the Palestinians, and the persistent military conflicts in the region all have contributed to a widespread siege mentality and belligerent political discourse. Perhaps most importantly, Western cultural symbols, modes of production and social values aggressively penetrated the Arab world, seriously challenging inherited values and practices, and added to a profound sense of alienation.
    Within authoritarian cultures, where the political system is immersed in patron-clientalism and coercive interrelationships with the population, individuals who may be alienated by the state seek to find refuge from oppressive political structures. In such circumstances, Robert Putnam (1993) asserts, it is usually difficult for people to pursue the impossible dream of cooperation in the absence of social capital, the most effective precondition for civic engagement and cooperation for mutual benefit. Civic engagement is an emanation from the social and human capital of the society that ultimately becomes a personal attribute of individuals within the same society. As such, people are capable of being socially reliable, simply because they are implicated in these norms and in the trustworthy civic networks within which their behaviour is internalised and ingrained (Eisenstadt and Roniger 1984). Further, Putnam (1993, p 187) argues:

    Stock of social capital, such as trust, norms, and network, tend to be self-enforcing and cumulative. Virtuous circles result in social equilibria with high levels of co-operation, trust, reciprocity, civic engagement, and collective well being. Defection, distrust, shirking, exploitation, isolation, disorder, and stagnation intensify one another in a suffocating miasma of vicious circles.

    Thusly viewed, authoritarianism is in part the result of both the kind of state-led economic development that occurred from the 1950s until the middle of the 1970s, and of the resilience of old classes, the adaptability of the new middle classes, and their consequent ability to thwart state policies. After all, authoritarianism cannot escape the logic of politics; on the one hand, where an authoritarian state is poorly institutionalised and enmeshed in clientelist relations with the society it governs, the imperative of political survival will significantly subvert political reforms. What makes these states unique are the ways these regimes penetrate their societies to implement policies and their ability to buffer their societies against pressures from regional and international systems. Following this logic, the Gulf States are a case in point: oil wealth has undoubtedly served to buffer the external pressures on regimes’ political capacity. The ruling families have been able to justify their existence and project support to their legitimacy by insuring that oil wealth has benefitted the populations.

    The civil society, one could argue, became with time increasingly ineffective in shaping and formulating the state’s policy choices. The UN Development Program’s Arab Human Development Reports in the last few years, which have analysed what remains the only substantially unchanged region of the world, is a paragon of virtue. These reports illuminated in a chilling detail, as was stated in the 2002 report, the “deeply rooted shortcomings of the Arab institutional structures” that hold back human development in the era of globalisation. They pointed further to the ‘freedom deficit,’ gender inequality, low levels of health care, education and information technology usage, and high unemployment that indicate clearly that the Arab world lags far behind the pace of global change.

    The state as the embodiment of family and kinship

    In Arabic political thought the term state, dawla, signifies a certain type of patrimonious institution that exercises power and authority delegated by a supernatural entity, Allah. Against this background and except for works on law and ethics, the state was discussed in a political context only as an abstract locus of order and disorder and, more importantly, as a God-given fait accompli. In the writings of Muslim scholars such as Ibn Khaldun, dawla refers to the continuity of power exercised by a clique of successive sovereigns. In Arab/Muslim history rulers have always exercised exclusive power (Hassan 1999). The conception of the state as an organisation of domination over a given territory had not existed. Rather, dawla essentially connotes a political body with three main components: a ruler, his troops, and a bureaucracy exclusively related to him.

    What must be stressed is that dawla is distinct from society at large and from what has come to be known in modern times as the civil society (Al-Azmeh 1993). Arab societies have lacked independent urban centres, an autonomous bourgeois class, and a Weberian bureaucracy with legal liability, personal property and a cluster of rights which embody bourgeois civic institutions. Without these institutional and cultural elements, there was nothing in Islamic history to challenge the dead hand of the despot. Social structure in Arab societies has been characterised by the absence of a network of institutions mediating between the individual and the state. It was this social vacuum which facilitated the circumstances in which the individual was often deprived of any protection against arbitrary rule. The absence of civil society explained the failure of capitalist economic development and political democracy (Turner 1994).
    Therefore, it is the sorrow state of Arab societies in the last few decades that a work of literature or art can engender and turn the entire state upside down. The assumption of a coherent civil society, moving toward democratisation, would be fruitful only if the constellation of civil society and social movements corroborate this process (White 1994). With the full articulation of ‘the new social movements’, the transformation toward self-limiting democracy can be accomplished in many Arab societies.

    It is of great importance, too, to place the public sphere within civil society. The citizen’s right is “rather a political principle involving a new and active relation on the part of citizens to a public sphere that is itself located within civil society” (Cohen and Arato 1992, p 396). Democratisation is usually obtained and brought about through the public sphere, by well-organised working classes. A differentiated and plural civil society is indirectly a prerequisite for democratisation, only if the very same civil society makes up a contingent and vibrant public sphere. This is a task that seems, for the time being, difficult to accomplish in the Arab world, given the dominance of Islamist groups and their reluctance to work with other oppositional forces – let alone that habits of patronage and clientelism still infect all aspects of the state–civil society relations. This being so, the efforts at democratisation are incurably pulled awry.

  8. #38
    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
    That was my deduction, based on the logic that an Arab would have to be self hating to write racist anti-Arab literature....... which was all just a slightly more interesting way of suggesting the quote had no racist intentions as it was written by an Arab.

    How was the quote racist?
    See post above, he is basically twisting the root words Mujtama, claims its Ijtma (Root words in arabic are 3-4 letters, this word is 5 in arabic, Alif, Jeem, Ta', Meem, Alif, Ain, the proper 3 letter word he was looking for is jam') to fit his own agenda, then adding a bunch of nebulous ideas to his argument about how civil society can progress. I'll give a "not racist" if thats what you want to push, useless is a better term.

    Indeed, the state in Egypt exists with its variety of civic institutions through the imposition of what Bianchi called ‘ruly control mechanisms’. Unlike social movements that have a decisive role in creating institutional preconditions for a transformation to democratic polity in Eastern Europe, Latin America, and elsewhere in the Third World, the social movements that constitute civil society in Egypt are not capable of undertaking a radical democratic shift. The civic institutions are disorganised and so penetrated by patron-client ties as to be incapable of aggregating the interest of society vis-à-vis the state.
    From the same link, i'm not sure how this is relevant to your argument, seeing as not only egypt and tunisia, but yemen are shifting towards a more democratic environment, which pretty much questions the original message i'm arguing how is "Arabic Culture incapable of having a civil society"?
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