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Thread: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    It could happen.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Canadian Press

    Date: Sunday Mar. 27, 2011 1:03 PM ET

    VANCOUVER — As an army of lawyers debate the future of Canada's law against polygamy in a Vancouver courtroom, the son of the B.C. attorney general who sparked the landmark case has returned from his college classes with some questions of his own.

    Wally Oppal was the first attorney general in the province to pursue polygamy charges against the leaders of Bountiful, an insular polygamous commune in southeast B.C. that has been under scrutiny from police and prosecutors for more than two decades.

    A few months after the charges were laid against Winston Blackmore and James Oler in early 2009, Oppal lost his bid for re-election. Later that year, the prosecution fell apart when a judge threw out the charges, setting the stage for the constitutional hearings that will return to a Vancouver courtroom this week for final arguments.

    Oppal may no longer be involved in the case, but his 21-year-old son, Josh, has brought the debate right into his living room. The former attorney general says his son came home from his classes at Kwantlen Polytechnic University with the very question the court will have to examine.

    "He raised the question: 'What business do you have of interfering with the rights of three adults who wish to be involved in this type of relationship?"' recalled Oppal in a recent interview.

    "It's a valid question to ask."

    Not just valid. It's the crux of what the court must decide.

    On one side are members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a polygamous sect that lives in Bountiful, civil liberties advocates and supporters of so-called polyamorous relationships. They argue the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation, and violates the charter guarantee of religious freedoms of those for whom multiple marriage is a tenet of their faith.

    On the opposite side are the federal and provincial governments, women's rights groups and self-described "survivors" of polygamy, who insist polygamy inevitably leads to sexual abuse, child brides and human trafficking -- crimes that justify outlawing the practice.

    Observers believe the case is ultimately headed to the Supreme Court of Canada, regardless of what the B.C. court decides.

    Oppal said he has no doubts about which is the correct answer.

    "That's what I was arguing with my son about, you have to look at this in a global sense, the harmful effects of polygamy," he said.

    "And you've heard some evidence about that, the abuse of women and children, the fact that the underlying philosophy of a polygamous relationship is demeaning to women."

    Soon after he took office in 2005, Oppal asked the RCMP to open a new investigation into Bountiful, and sought outside legal opinions about how to proceed.

    The RCMP recommended charges, but the legal experts did not. Like others before them, they raised concerns about the constitutionality of the law, and instead suggested asking the courts to decide whether the law was consistent with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

    Undeterred, Oppal appointed yet another special prosecutor, who finally sided with him.

    The Mounties swept into Bountiful in January 2009 and arrested Blackmore and Oler, charging each with practising polygamy.

    A judge later agreed with the men's lawyers that Oppal was improperly "shopping" for special prosecutors. The charges were stayed.

    In hindsight, Oppal said it probably would have been easier to simply launch a reference case, which is eventually where the issue ended up. Still, he's unapologetic.

    "I was shopping, no question about that," said Oppal. "I think the attorney general, as the chief law officer of the province, has the right to decide who should be prosecuted, who shouldn't be prosecuted, and how you do that. But the court told me I'm wrong, so I've got to live with that."

    It was a dilemma that faced a series of attorneys general before him, who were all equally reluctant to pursue polygamy charges in Bountiful, where, for all their secrecy, residents don't deny their polygamous way of life.

    One such attorney general was Colin Gabelmann, who held the position under an NDP government in the early 1990s. It was under his watch that officials from the province's Criminal Justice Branch publicly announced they wouldn't pursue charges because, in their opinion, the law was unconstitutional.

    Nearly two decades later, Gabelmann said his failure to launch a prosecution wasn't for lack of trying.

    The RCMP did not have enough evidence to support charges unrelated to polygamy, such as sexual abuse, said Gabelmann. It's a problem cited by governments arguing in favour of the law: polygamous wives, including young teenagers, are reluctant witnesses.

    Repeated legal opinions, including from a former judge, all came back with the same answer.

    "An attorney general always has the right to overrule his or her advisers, but to do so in the face of absolutely overwhelming and unanimous opinion would be to really launch into the political realm, rather than the legal realm, and I refused to do this," said Gabelmann.

    "I didn't treat it cavalierly. We treated it with a great deal of intensity and concern."

    Gabelmann believes the case currently before the court will help clear up decades of uncertainty around the law, while answering important questions about the limits of religious freedom.

    "Society deserves an answer and the people who've been abused deserve an answer," he said. "It would be good to put it all behind us with the feeling of security around the whole question of the potential abuse so we can all feel that won't happen. "

    For Oppal, the eventual court decision still might not settle the debate for him and his son, who is considering a law career.

    "I encourage him to debate these things with me. This is not a black and white argument, that's why we're here," said Oppal.

    "But at the end of the day, I think I'm right."

    http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/201...uments-110327/

    And if it does my mother will RAGE!!! This is a possibility via the same mechanism that legalized same-sex marriage 7 years ago. Our constitutions charter of rights and freedoms. And the courts nasty habit of upholding it. As the law outlawing polygamy here was written specifically to target Mormons in 1890, and ammended in the 50's to less obviously target Mormons. Something the charter greatly frowns upon. Indeed any charges against the polygamist Mormon sect in BC had a hard time finding traction in the crown prosecutors offices as the law is constitutionally grey.

    But unless and until this case goes to the supreme court nothing is decided. If it were legalized however it could create some interesting group marriages .
    Last edited by lars573; 04-16-2011 at 19:02.
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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    I don't think it will happen. The Supreme Court will knock it down.

    I hope.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    What about polyandry?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Well if a man and a man can get married, why can't a man and a man and a man get married?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut View Post
    I don't think it will happen. The Supreme Court will knock it down.

    I hope.
    I guess follow the story to see what the Supreme court says.
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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    Well if a man and a man can get married, why can't a man and a man and a man get married?
    In the name of equality we're going to end up with men marrying their mothers, fathers marrying their daughters, guys marrying dogs, it will never end. And there will be people who say anyone who is against any of these things they are just hate-mongers.

    Let there be mush.

    Groan.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Jaguara's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    To think that someday soon I can go out in public with all my wives at once...of course, first I will have to tell them about each other...

    Well, the Mormons seem to be pushing for acceptance of this across North America. You have that new TLC show, that focuses on a family, mostly portrayed in a positive light. Of course, in typical TLC fashion, they show a well off family...not the beat up trailer in the woods with 25 kids. (Same deal with the "little people" shows...always an affluent family, never someone struggling to deal with grim realities of life)

    Myself, I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, other than random curiousity. I have tended toward the interpretation that it often results in exploitation of women...but I could be merely influenced by "feminist propoganda", or bias based on local cults which engaged in polygamy. I certainly have no first-hand experience.

    I had heard that often it is very young girls who are introduced into these marriages, when they are easier to "train" and then control. However, the TLC show portrays this as mostly a choice made by more mature women. I have no statistics or information to show one or the other.

    I am also aware that many other cultures allowed this sort of arrangement - in Ancient China, in certain sects of Islam, and others. Are some forms more acceptable than others?

    So, there are a lot of questions to answer in this legal case.

    There are many brands of polygamy - from the man who leads 2-3 different lives, with each ignorant of the others on one side to the religious-based relationships on the other.
    Will this allow all forms of polygamy?
    Will only Mormon polygamy be allowed or all religious/cultural polygamy be allowed?
    Will a woman be able to marry multiple men?

    So, any thoughts on any of this?
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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    We'll be a nation of Captain Jack Harkness's and Captain John Hart's. Interesting would be a very mild way of putting it. Still we're getting a bit ahead of our selfs.
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut View Post
    In the name of equality we're going to end up with men marrying their mothers, fathers marrying their daughters, guys marrying dogs, it will never end. And there will be people who say anyone who is against any of these things they are just hate-mongers.

    Let there be mush.

    Groan.
    Are you really concerned about men marrying their dogs, or is that just exaggeration for effect?

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    The state should not interfere with peoples love life.

    Whether I choose to spend my life with one, two, three or more people, or alone, is nobodys business but my own. Love should be an individuals choice, and never regulated by law. End of story.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    If people are willing to marry more than one person, who are we to prevent that? So long as people are not forced into marriage (Which is already a crime by itself), then I don't see a point in forbidding polygamy except to maintain some sort of Judeo-Christian standard of monogamy.
    BLARGH!

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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Are you really concerned about men marrying their dogs, or is that just exaggeration for effect?
    Well, stranger things have happened notably in Japan. There people marry things like blow up dolls and cushions.
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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    What kinda fool would want more than one wife?
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    I wonder this will mean for spousal benefits.
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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Are you really concerned about men marrying their dogs, or is that just exaggeration for effect?
    I can't imagine that answering that would provide as much entertainment for your imaqination as not answering it.

    So, because I care about your quality of life, I'm not going to answer it.
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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    State-recognised marriage exists to promote the nuclear family because it was the building block of society.

    Polygamous relationships on the other hand are not, but are in fact destructive to it.

    If you want to have such a relationship then fine, but don't expect the government to support it.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    The state should not interfere with peoples love life.

    Whether I choose to spend my life with one, two, three or more people, or alone, is nobodys business but my own. Love should be an individuals choice, and never regulated by law. End of story.
    But does that mean you should get tax and welfare benefits for it?
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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito View Post
    What kinda fool would want more than one wife?
    Mormons dudes who's womenz have been molded into doormat baby factories by years of indoctrination. Or Muslims who believe in the old ways
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    I support Polygamy, and thinking to get four wife if the circumstances allow it
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Love should be an individuals choice, and never regulated by law. End of story. “ Nicely said. End of story? What about divorce? If one wants to divorce how the common property will be divided. There is the point were the law and the State will have to regulate… All incomes will be divided and a quota allocated to the one who wants to go? Housing? I can’t wait to see what will happen with the children when a man will have several wives and within the same marriage, the wife having several husbands…
    A new gold mine for lawyers…

    I can't wait to see the face of the polygamists when their wives will go in bed with others husbands, in the common house....
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguara View Post
    Myself, I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, other than random curiousity. I have tended toward the interpretation that it often results in exploitation of women...but I could be merely influenced by "feminist propoganda", or bias based on local cults which engaged in polygamy. I certainly have no first-hand experience.

    I had heard that often it is very young girls who are introduced into these marriages, when they are easier to "train" and then control. However, the TLC show portrays this as mostly a choice made by more mature women. I have no statistics or information to show one or the other.
    My understanding, growing up in southern Utah near an FLDS community, is that there is indeed a lot of abuse, arranged marriage of young girls to old men, and indoctrination. The states of Utah and Arizona both had many headaches trying to figure out a legal approach to shutting them down. The biggest problems are the indoctrination and isolation. I don't know if legalizing it would allow greater access and opportunity for intervention in then-hopefully-demonstrable cases of abuse. The level of patriarchy and anti-feminism in the mainstream Mormon church is bad enough, but in the FLDS offshoots it's disgusting.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    I'm for it in principle, but I agree that it is something that has many difficult facets.

    I don't think that polygamy has the monopoly on brainwashing women into house mice / baby factories.

    If polygamy were more widely accepted, there might be less need for certain communities to isolate and indoctrinate. After all, we are indoctrinated to the concept of monogamy, we just consider that "normal" and "right".

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    But does that mean you should get tax and welfare benefits for it?
    If other couples recieve them, yes of course. Why on earth shouldn't they?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    If other couples recieve them, yes of course. Why on earth shouldn't they?
    For a start, they are not really even a "couple".
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    For a start, they are not really even a "couple".
    They could call themselves a "several".
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    For a start, they are not really even a "couple".
    Do I care about linguistics? Nope. Next argument, please. And make it a valid one this time.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  26. #26

    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    But does that mean you should get tax and welfare benefits for it?
    Good point. Why not remove the tax & welfare benefits for married couples?
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Good point. Why not remove the tax & welfare benefits for married couples?
    I support this.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Why not outlaw mormonism instead of legalizing polygamy?
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I support this.
    As you all know, so do I.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legalizing polygamy in Canada.....

    Do I care about linguistics?”: Er, you do. The fact is we debate of polygamy. Polygamy is one man several women.
    So it is against human Rights in term of equality of gender.
    So the question is does Canada will legalise multiple marriage?
    So de facto, will Canada destroy the very notion of marriage and re-emplace it by something new as free union with legal duties and right and will Canada vote new laws in order to protect the rights of each member of such union, including babies (who is the father) in case of dissolution…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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