The Desire To Protect "Culture"

[Strike For The South]

Is the biggest threat to Western Style Democracy

Granted I'm convinced most of you just don't like brown people but most of you are smart enough to wrap up your child like xenophobic fears in enough flowerly prose to deflect such an elementary diagnosis

Get over yourself

Granted this goes both ways

Something to think about

[HoreTore]

Agreed completely.

Also, the desire to protect a culture shows a complete misunderstanding of what culture is. Culture isn't static or final, it is constantly changing. In 100 years the culture here will be completely different, but it will still be our culture, just like the culture in 1911 was completely, but still our culture.

Trying to preserve it will only lead to stagnation and eventual ruin. Everyone who has tried have gone under, while those society who have been open has seen innovation and growth.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Is the biggest threat to Western Style Democracy

Granted I'm convinced most of you just don't like brown people but most of you are smart enough to wrap up your child like xenophobic fears in enough flowerly prose to deflect such an elementary diagnosis

Get over yourself

Granted this goes both ways

Something to think about

Get off your high horse.

There is no reason why any people should accept the influx of millions of outlanders who do not share their values, beliefs or even language. The current movements of people into Europe are the greatest since the collapse of the Roman Empire, both in numbers and also (probably) proportionally.

Since we don't need more people the incomers are not welcome if they want to cause social problems as well as stressing our public services

[PanzerJaeger]

Is the biggest threat to Western Style Democracy

Granted I'm convinced most of you just don't like brown people but most of you are smart enough to wrap up your child like xenophobic fears in enough flowerly prose to deflect such an elementary diagnosis

Get over yourself

Granted this goes both ways

Something to think about

Would you rather live in a Western culture or an Islamic one? Would you rather live in America or Mexico? Culture is worth preserving, especially if the alternative is far worse.

[Centurion1]

Is the biggest threat to Western Style Democracy

Granted I'm convinced most of you just don't like brown people but most of you are smart enough to wrap up your child like xenophobic fears in enough flowerly prose to deflect such an elementary diagnosis

Get over yourself

Granted this goes both ways

Something to think about

as soon as you get over yourself

[Subotan]

One wonders what the reaction to this thread would have been if instead of asking whether culture should be defended, the contributions immigrants have made to modern European culture had been celebrated and applauded. I would imagine that the importance of "culture" would have been ridiculed and sneered at, as opposed to the resolute defence it has received in this thread.

Is the biggest threat to Western Style Democracy

I personally think it's Chinese Ultra-Nationalism.

Since we don't need more people the incomers are not welcome if they want to cause social problems as well as stressing our public services

Yes we do, as we're not having enough babies. And I thought us Europeans were meant to be good at sex.

Would you rather live in a Western culture or an Islamic one? Would you rather live in America or Mexico? Culture is worth preserving, especially if the alternative is far worse.

False equivalence, as both of the latter have lower living standards and are less democratic than mine.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The OP should not treat culture and political systems as being distinct. The fact is that liberal democracy is a product of western culture. When it is exported to other parts of the world, it always seems to export western culture along with it.

Also, the desire to protect a culture shows a complete misunderstanding of what culture is. Culture isn't static or final, it is constantly changing. In 100 years the culture here will be completely different, but it will still be our culture, just like the culture in 1911 was completely, but still our culture..

Who do this "our" include/exclude?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I've got nothing against culture. Some of my best friends are cultured men.

Yes we do, as we're not having enough babies.

But why should a population grow for all eternity? Or stay at the exact amount it is now?

I say let Europe lose half its population, or three quarters. This will be far more sustainable. East Asian populations are dropping too. Nobody is contemplating replacing the shrinking population of Japan with New Guineans.

[Strike For The South]

Would you rather live in a Western culture or an Islamic one? Would you rather live in America or Mexico? Culture is worth preserving, especially if the alternative is far worse.

Becuase these immagrants wont assimalate

Just like the Irish,Germans,Italians, Poles, Jews ECETERA ECETERA

You're also delusional if you think the culture of Mexico and America are seperated by anything but language

[Louis VI the Fat]

You're also delusional if you think the culture of Mexico and America are seperated by anything but language

Left southern Texas much?

Oregon, Ohio, Massachussets - these are not Yucatan.

There is a process of acculturation in the US, notably in the Southwest, where the difference between Hispanics and others is fading. Even outside the contact epicentre this is noticable. Latin America is starting to resemble North America at an even faster pace than the US is becoming hispanicised.

Sometimes I see videos on the web or on the news about some six lane highway, white-coloured SUVs, a large gas station, drive-thru restaurant, and I would've sworn it it was the US, and it turns out to be Colombia, or Brazil. Even the people look similar, and I don't just mean ethnically. Same short hair, same semi-baggy clothes, same body types - those typically American half-fit, half-overweight huge bodies.

I guess the same thing is going on in Europe. I went to Marseille some time ago and I would've sworn I was in Marrakech.

[PanzerJaeger]

Becuase these immagrants wont assimalate

Just like the Irish,Germans,Italians, Poles, Jews ECETERA ECETERA

You've listed several different groups of Europeans migrating into a European-structured country. And the larger groups did indeed change the fabric of the nation, some for the better and some for the worse. Say what you will, but WASP culture turned this backwater into a superpower and delivered to it unheard of levels of wealth and prosperity, and its dissolution has largely underpinned our current failings.

You're also delusional if you think the culture of Mexico and America are seperated by anything but language

I think you're so enamored with your own self righteousness that you've lost touch with reality.

Culture is variable across peoples and nations, and not every culture is equal. Humanity has been so traumatized by the wars and genocides of the 20th century that it has become politically correct to assume equality not only in race, but in every aspect of humanity. While noble on an individual level, when this assumption of equality is then extrapolated to nations and culture, it becomes highly dangerous.

There are reasons why Mexico is different than the United States, just as there are reasons why Spain is different than Germany and Saudi Arabia is different than France. Those reasons are universally underpinned by cultural dimensions.

Have you ever heard of Geert Hofstede?

[HoreTore]

The OP should not treat culture and political systems as being distinct. The fact is that liberal democracy is a product of western culture. When it is exported to other parts of the world, it always seems to export western culture along with it.

Take a look at India.

Who do this "our" include/exclude?

It doesn't exclude anyone, and it includes everyone who lives here.

[Andres]

Get off your high horse.

There is no reason why any people should accept the influx of millions of outlanders who do not share their values, beliefs or even language. The current movements of people into Europe are the greatest since the collapse of the Roman Empire, both in numbers and also (probably) proportionally.

Since we don't need more people the incomers are not welcome if they want to cause social problems as well as stressing our public services

Indeed.

The problem is not that Europe is not hospitable enough, the problem is that we've been way too hospitable for decades and are now feeling the backlash of this.

Holding the doors wide open for years and throwing money at people without really expecting anything in return, turned out to be a moronic idea. Even those who called the people pointing such a no-brainer out "racists" no longer than 15 years ago, now see and understand that (but most won't admit that they carry a huge part of the blame).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes we do, as we're not having enough babies. And I thought us Europeans were meant to be good at sex.

We are overcrowded and have too many people for too few jobs. The state needs to be restructed and the retirement age needs to rise, we don't need more babies.

Strike should try getting off his high horse.

[Andres]

But why should a population grow for all eternity? Or stay at the exact amount it is now?

I say let Europe lose half its population, or three quarters. This will be far more sustainable. East Asian populations are dropping too. Nobody is contemplating replacing the shrinking population of Japan with New Guineans.

Overpopulation and the graying of our population are the real threats for Europe. The fact that previous generations of politicians wasted the tax money of my parents instead of saving some, makes these problems potential disasters. Looking at our current generations of politicians, it has all the looks that these problems will indeed turn out disastrous for us. Legions of uneducated immigrants with no skills won't be the solution; in fact they might become the catalyst to set the disasters in motion.

[Furunculus]

Is the biggest threat to Western Style Democracy

Granted I'm convinced most of you just don't like brown people but most of you are smart enough to wrap up your child like xenophobic fears in enough flowerly prose to deflect such an elementary diagnosis

Get over yourself

Yes and no. As Horetore notes culture is not a static thing and is in fact constantly evolving, however, what culture is in fact from the point of view of society is a bell-curve where the majority of people have an expectation that society won't act in a manner antagonistic to their core values.

Where there is a mistake is where you fixate on static features of society in its current form and try to protect them, such as banning Burkas.

Society is a battle for ideas and if you don't have confidence that a healthy society will prevail then its a lost cause regardless of artificial measures put in place.

There is nothing wrong with limiting the influx of people from different cultures in order that the bell-curve does not become too shallow, for that leads to social strife and a reduction in cohesion, regardless of how brown they are.

So no, I won't get over myself.

[Incongruous]

Take a look at India.

I look at India and I see a nation obsessed with cricket, film stars and IT. When one goes the most modern parts of Bombay, it's hard to distinguish between western and indian forms of pop culture, apart from the skin tones, India is fast becoming Westernised. As Rhyf said, political structure and culture are not properly seperable.

Europe is under no obligation to take in vast numbers of immigrants who's arrival the native population was never given a just say in, if it went to vote, immigration would plummet, as is only right. When I'm in England I want to be in England, not some cosmopolitan's lala land experiment gone wrong.

[HoreTore]

We never voted for it? That's high up on the "worst lies ever"-list.

We hsve voted every fourth year for the last century. We have consistantly voted in parties who support immigration. Of course we have voted in favour of the immigration policies we have. It's not like its a party with low turnout who have forced their will on the rest, all the biggest parties in Europe support immigration.

There ism however, a very vocal minority. But that doesn't change the fact that the majority of thte european populatiln has voted consistantly in favour of mass immigration.

[Andres]

We never voted for it? That's high up on the "worst lies ever"-list.

We hsve voted every fourth year for the last century. We have consistantly voted in parties who support immigration. Of course we have voted in favour of the immigration policies we have. It's not like its a party with low turnout who have forced their will on the rest, all the biggest parties in Europe support immigration.

There ism however, a very vocal minority. But that doesn't change the fact that the majority of thte european populatiln has voted consistantly in favour of mass immigration.

The problem is, there has been a very long period where the choice was: "uncontrolled mass immigration" and "your local extreme-right nutters"; because, at least in my country, everything that resembled something that looked like saying that there may be some truth in what the extreme right-wingers are saying, was deemed "racist" by the "politically correct" or the "democratic parties". There has been no middle-ground on this issue for ages.

Which mean that as a party you either supported moronic mass immigration with no control whatsoever or you were put in the racist camp.

Of course, most people won't vote for the extreme right and don't want to be associated with racist scum; it's only when a substantial part of the population, being sick and tired of having been ignored on this issue, started to vote the extreme right out of sheer desperation and frustration, that the more sane parties started to think about maybe doing something that resembles a bit of control on the immigration and, oh no, perhaps expecting immigrants to do something in return for the € that are thrown into their direction.

Reap what you sow. The key is now not to fall into the opposite extreme of "you're all welcome, here's a house or a hotel room and a paycheck. Feel free to invite your 8 brothers and sisters and all their children as well, we'll gladly pay. Ignore the racists who expect you to learn the local language and get a job. They're idiots", which is the credo plenty of mostly francophone political parties over here are still following, together with the Flemish nepotist caviar socialists.

[Fragony]

Is the biggest threat to Western Style Democracy

Granted I'm convinced most of you just don't like brown people but most of you are smart enough to wrap up your child like xenophobic fears in enough flowerly prose to deflect such an elementary diagnosis

Get over yourself

Granted this goes both ways

Something to think about

Same assumptions, same answer. Has nothing to do with brown people. What makes you think it is? Now THAT is really something to think about

[Subotan]

But why should a population grow for all eternity? Or stay at the exact amount it is now?

I say let Europe lose half its population, or three quarters. This will be far more sustainable. East Asian populations are dropping too. Nobody is contemplating replacing the shrinking population of Japan with New Guineans.

Well that's because both Japanese and Korean society are rather racist. Besides, there are calls for the Japanese to accept more immigrants, but it's a third rail subject in Japanese politics.

The problem is not that Europe is not hospitable enough, the problem is that we've been way too hospitable for decades and are now feeling the backlash of this.

And yet America has been extremely hospitable to immigrants for decades, including Muslims, and has seen great benefits come from this. The problem with the way Europe treated and treats immigrants is through our treatment of immigrants as Gastarbeiter, expecting them to eventually piss off back to their original country, as opposed to new citizens.

We are overcrowded and have too many people for too few jobs

Overcrowding is such a relative term. What seems crowded today isn't at all by Singaporean standards, and likely won't be either in 50 years or so. I also fail to see how reducing the labour supply is going to create more jobs for our workforce.

The state needs to be restructed and the retirement age needs to rise, we don't need more babies.

But people want to have their cakes and eat them as well. They don't want to retire later, or want to have more babies, and yet they want economic growth and higher living standards. The only way that's going to happen is through an expansion of the labour supply, which needs immigrants.

[rory_20_uk]

Granted I'm convinced most of you just don't like brown people

I Married a Trindadian. My son is therefore mixed race.

She views herself as English, and our son is English. The colour of our skin is not the issue.

[Strike For The South]

You've listed several different groups of Europeans migrating into a European-structured country. And the larger groups did indeed change the fabric of the nation, some for the better and some for the worse. Say what you will, but WASP culture turned this backwater into a superpower and delivered to it unheard of levels of wealth and prosperity, and its dissolution has largely underpinned our current failings.

The same WASPS whom spent us into debt and got us into wars of empire, clearly they know what there doing.

I think you're so enamored with your own self righteousness that you've lost touch with reality.

Thank you

Culture is variable across peoples and nations, and not every culture is equal. Humanity has been so traumatized by the wars and genocides of the 20th century that it has become politically correct to assume equality not only in race, but in every aspect of humanity. While noble on an individual level, when this assumption of equality is then extrapolated to nations and culture, it becomes highly dangerous.

There are reasons why Mexico is different than the United States, just as there are reasons why Spain is different than Germany and Saudi Arabia is different than France. Those reasons are universally underpinned by cultural dimensions.

MOst of these differences can be traced back to money, besides I know the sons and daughters of these Mexicans immagrants will become more Americanized, like all the others. Sure they will change us a bit but thats always how these things work

Have you ever heard of Geert Hofstede?

No but a quick wiki search does not impress me, culture shock from Holland to England? Really?

Left southern Texas much?

Oregon, Ohio, Massachussets - these are not Yucatan.

There is a process of acculturation in the US, notably in the Southwest, where the difference between Hispanics and others is fading. Even outside the contact epicentre this is noticable. Latin America is starting to resemble North America at an even faster pace than the US is becoming hispanicised.

Sometimes I see videos on the web or on the news about some six lane highway, white-coloured SUVs, a large gas station, drive-thru restaurant, and I would've sworn it it was the US, and it turns out to be Colombia, or Brazil. Even the people look similar, and I don't just mean ethnically. Same short hair, same semi-baggy clothes, same body types - those typically American half-fit, half-overweight huge bodies.

I guess the same thing is going on in Europe. I went to Marseille some time ago and I would've sworn I was in Marrakech.

[Furunculus]

I Married a Trindadian. My son is therefore mixed race.

She views herself as English, and our son is English. The colour of our skin is not the issue.

exactly.

even the nationalists here, myself included, tend to be civic nationalists.

it doesn't matter what colour a persons skin is, all that I care about is that they immigrants consider themselves British and attempt to comply with the public mores of wider society.

strike in his own topic, is once again conflating race with culture.

[gaelic cowboy]

it doesn't matter what colour a persons skin is, all that I care about is that they immigrants consider themselves British and attempt to comply with the public mores of wider society.

The need not consider themselves British if they merely comply with public mores and get on with there own thing then society will get over it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The need not consider themselves British if they merely comply with public mores and get on with there own thing then society will get over it.

Precisely. For me it is "I don't require you to feel any attachment to some artificial identity, all I ask is that you behave yourself and you are welcome to seek your fortunes here".

[Louis VI the Fat]

It used to be that Europe subdued Africa. Not anymore. The roles have been reversed. The Dark Continent is now swamping Europe, destroying our societies.

I TOLD YOU SO

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Europe's future lies under Africa, scientists suggest

The continents are converging; and for many millions of years, the northern edge of the African tectonic plate has descended under Europe.
But this process has stalled; and at the European Geosciences Union (EGU) meeting last week, scientists said we may be seeing Europe taking a turn.
If they are correct, this would signal the start of a new subduction zone - a rare event, scientifically fascinating.

Beneath the Mediterranean Sea, the cold, dense rock at the extreme north of the African plate has virtually all sunk under the Eurasian plate on which Europe sits.
But the African landmass is too light to follow suit and descend.

"Africa won't sink, but Africa and Europe continue to move together; so where is this taken up?" asked Rinus Wortel from the University of Utrecht.
"It looks possible that on the appropriate timescale, we are witnessing the beginning of subduction of Europe under Africa," he told BBC News.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13015252

[Furunculus]

The need not consider themselves British if they merely comply with public mores and get on with there own thing then society will get over it.

granted, my objection principally lies with the obverse, immigrants who actively reject a british identity, as its both frankly ungrateful and an indicator of an unwillingness to conform.

not the kind of people I would be overjoyed to welcome to our shores.

It used to be that Europe subdued Africa. Not anymore. The roles have been reversed. The Dark Continent is now swamping Europe, destroying our societies.

I TOLD YOU SO

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13015252

is that an obscure metaphor for gaddafi unleashing immigrants into the schengen area with the connivance of italy? :p

[Shibumi]

I supported immigration as long as we had an assimilation policy, and as long as we had immigration and not mass-immigration.

I think Andres is spot on, and PJ touched the topic too. Hitler and the brown-shirts very much did the western world a disservice (obvious reasons aside), as anything remotely close to their beliefs will immediately be tagged as racist/nazi/fascist.

I have said this before on this forum, but I will repeat myself. What has made the winds change politically as of late is (IMHO) the fact that we have a huge amount of people who simply can not get a job, while the bleeding-hearts left is still trying to defend the immigration policy with "we need need more people to work". No, we do not need illiterate sheep herders from Afghanistan, to think they will pay for my pension is ludicrous. On the contrary, they drain the national economy. You will not find a single economist these days who say immigration is profitable.

The immigration has also had a cold effect on the national atmosphere at large. Paying taxes did not use to be a problem, as it went to people who needed it. We were all raised pretty much the same way, we had the same beliefs, same values, same upbringing. Of course we should support those unfortunate. But money no longer go to the unfortunate. The system that was created to support a mother who had lost her husband now is used to milk cash from the state. I would happily help a woman who by no choice of her own is stuck having to support her kids. I am however less thrilled about supporting some African woman with a machine gun uterus, getting 8 kids who none of them pass elementary school, but instead are out on the streets vandalizing, having a "divorced" dad who lies around all day chewing khat between conceptions. "Divorced" in the sense of the law, not religion(!?).

We have schools in the ghettos where 9/10 kids do not finish elementary school with qualified grades - clearly we are succeeding with the second generation immigrants, and they will be an absolute hoot on the work market.

And no, of course all immigrants are not like that. But enough to start having an impact at society at large.

[HoreTore]

No economists agree that immigration is good? What? That's why the employers union here crave even more immigration...?