Units who you cannot stand in your armies?

[Monk]

Yeah it's time for a negative thread! Who're some of the units you just cannot stand having in your army?

For me it's Bow Cavalry. This is likely my own hang-up but in my experiments with them I simply couldn't figure out how to use them effectively.

I'm sure there's a way, but the amount of micro needed for them is ridiculous. Add to the fact that foot archers are already pretty powerful and Bow Cavalry risk getting shot up really quickly. The best use i've found for them is simply as highly mobile archers, but even then, I can't justify taking them over normal Bow Samurai - or even Bow Ashigaru.

[Graphic]

Bow Ashigaru

They pale in comparison to samurai archers.

[Forward Observer]

I've had bad luck with bow cavalry also. I put them on skirmish--thinking they'll be OK---then the next thing I know is that they get backed into a tight and get wiped out--when my attention is elsewhere, . Consequently, I simply stopped recruiting them.

However, I just finished a short Takeda campaign and at some point got stuck with a free unit of bow cavalry for completing one of the Bushido arts. They just happened to be in a lower level coastal castle when it got attacked, which meant I had no way to use them outside the fort. The only choice was to dismount them for use as rather weak foot archers. I didn't put them on the wall, but lined them up against the side of the center building. I completely forgot about them until the battle ended.

I was out numbered about 2 to 1, but that's usually manageable--when defending a castle. When it was over--was I surprised to see all 60 of them survived and was even more astounded when I saw that they scored just over 90 kills. I don't know if their kills were from lobbing arrows over the wall or from shooting attackers that made it briefly inside the fort, but it was still the best I have ever done with them.

Cheers

P.S. I also don't bother with the bomb throwers either--for pretty much the same reasons.

[The_Emperor]

Bomb Throwers and Kisho Ninja

small units that require far too much micromanagement to use effectively in majority of battles. Plus the Ninja are just so damn expensive!

Oh and Bow cav.

[A Nerd]

^ ^ I tried the ninja and felt they were not worth the price and the recruitment time. Never tried any bomb throwers.

[Dead Guy]

All of the above except Bow Ashigaru, the mainstay of many an army for me. Bow Ashis with excpetional accuracy bonus (master bow maker + hunters lodge) are good enough and dirt cheap. They're not supposed to fight or get shot at, they're just supposed to hit things with arrows. Bow Samurai are too expensive, you're paying for melee abilities you will/should never use.

I've also never really used Imported Matchlock Ashigaru, since when I did try them out, they were incredibly underwhelming. They barely got a volley off, looked more like a few odd shots that didn't really kill anyone. Because of this I haven't used any gunpowder troops at all.

[frogbeastegg]

Hero units. Too much a 'crazy-power' unit for my tastes. They make me feel like I can get away with sloppy play when they are on my side, and are a chore to kill when the AI has them. They also ruin the illusion that the battle is plausible. I used them in a single battle and will not build them again.

Battlefield ninja. I didn't see the point in STW, and I don't see it in S2TW. Maybe if as a player I was more interested in hunting down the enemy general I'd have a different view. As it is, I prefer to kill him later in the battle.

Bomb throwers, cavalry archers and guns are all units which have a place in my armies; that place is highly limited, highly specialised, and I do not want them around outside of that. I'm working on guns in the hopes I will one day wish to include them in my standard armies. At the moment I feel I have other, better ways to get similar results using more standard unit types, e.g. a flanking cavalry charge instead of a flanking gun volley to damage morale.

[james_austintx]

Bomb Throwers are outstanding when defending in siege assault.

[The_Emperor]

Battlefield ninja. I didn't see the point in STW, and I don't see it in S2TW. Maybe if as a player I was more interested in hunting down the enemy general I'd have a different view. As it is, I prefer to kill him later in the battle.

Hi froggy!

i agree there, I did read up some strategies on how to use them on sieges but to be honest I would much rather smash their General with a Yari Cav charge in the back than take a small bunch of sneaky dudes that always seem to start the game with the AI army marching directly towards their position on their way to my army.

There are so many better ways to kill the enemy general than to rely on ninja.

[edyzmedieval]

Bomb throwers, cannons, Kisho Ninja and hero units (except Katana heroes).

They're all pretty much worthless for my tactics, especially the hero units which aren't that useful when playing on Hard/Very Hard/Legendary. They don't justify the huge price.

[Ed TW]

I'm not big on calvary archers either, however I've had some luck when harassing infantry units. If an enemy doesn't have the calvary to run down my calvary archers I usually can make a unit or two start chasing them. This will take more heat off of my melee units, and give them an upper hand. The bomb throwers I've used to get my melee units out of trouble. Two or three volleys usually gets the enemy routing. They are allot of fun when defending in a siege though.

[al Roumi]

Never used cav archers or kisho ninjas. There's a place in most of my armies for everything else.

[HopAlongBunny]

Cav archers; seems to be no love for them (D-T's thread gives some hope, but it sounds like a lot of work)

I've recruited the ninja unit but have never got around to using it. A large expense for the dubious pleasure of micro'ing it during a battle.

[phonicsmonkey]

Cav archers; seems to be no love for them

Indeed - as a HA enthusiast of long(ish) standing I'll be persisting with them. So far I've had some success but my main issue is that the firing arc appears too low so that it's too easy to suffer FF casualties. I see the MP guys are picking this up too so maybe CA will address it in a future patch...

In my shimazu campaign I'm well on the way to an all-cav, mostly-HA stack so I'll report back here as I use them more extensively.

To the point of this thread, the only unit I seem to have no use for so far is matchlock ashigaru.

[frogbeastegg]

Hi froggy!

Hello! Nice to see you around again

In my shimazu campaign I'm well on the way to an all-cav, mostly-HA stack so I'll report back here as I use them more extensively.

Please do report back. When I use missile cav in any TW game I prefer to go all cav, say 12 missile types and 8 melee types. I don't get on with the mixed version which includes infantry as they hold my mobility back too much, and I think this is a large part of why I'm not liking missile cav in Shogun 2. My army doesn't feel .... liquid enough, I can't ebb and flow as befits the developing situation, not when I have that mob of guys on foot plodding along.

I haven't considered an all cav stack in shogun 2 due to the costs involved, and the increased vulnerability of cav compared to RTW and M2TW. If it does work then it could be interesting for me to dabble with during my eventual takeda campaign ...

[phonicsmonkey]

Please do report back. When I use missile cav in any TW game I prefer to go all cav, say 12 missile types and 8 melee types. I don't get on with the mixed version which includes infantry as they hold my mobility back too much, and I think this is a large part of why I'm not liking missile cav in Shogun 2. My army doesn't feel .... liquid enough, I can't ebb and flow as befits the developing situation, not when I have that mob of guys on foot plodding along.

I haven't considered an all cav stack in shogun 2 due to the costs involved, and the increased vulnerability of cav compared to RTW and M2TW. If it does work then it could be interesting for me to dabble with during my eventual takeda campaign ...

I thought I'd post in the other thread

But one thing you may not have realised froggy is how good they are in auto-resolve...which makes them an appealing option for a quick and dirty strike force behind enemy lines..

[leahyd]

Maybe I am the only person who ''feels some love'' for bow cavalry... but actually I have had some success with them...

Their accuracy is fairly high at 60 (compared to 40 for normal foot Bow Samurai, all things being equal), higher rate of fire, and their morale is higher too, even though unit size is smaller at 60 vs 90.... what I tend to do is use them to dash forward then dismount - tends to work out very well in sieges when my opponent has Ashigaru bowmen in his castle. Run to just outside the enemies range, dismount, go to loose formation, and fire away. After gaining some chevrons, I have used them as artillery - much more useful than European Canons for sieges, which you might as well forget, and use a Ninja to open a gate, unless you are attacking higher-end fortifications with multiple levels.

Then, behind the quick firing forest of accurate arrows, I hit with my lumbering Naginata ... using Ashigaru as a flanking force. Seems to work so far...

[Gregoshi]

Welcome to the Org leahyd. You and phonicsmonkey are restoring some confidence that the bow cavalry can be useful.

[leahyd]

Thanks for the tip... I checked out The Other Thread, interesting stuff...

I tend to start as a turtler... old habits die hide... so lots of trade, diplomacy, spying and espionage while I tech up... then when I break out, I go for high morale units as my core. Perhaps my dismounted bow cavalry tactics work more as I tend to have armour and morale boosts.

Ashigaru, I only use for garrison, flanking, or wearing out ammunition ... they can run but my core is not affected due to high morale....

Personally I think the European Cannon is the least flexible unit.

[frogbeastegg]

But one thing you may not have realised froggy is how good they are in auto-resolve...which makes them an appealing option for a quick and dirty strike force behind enemy lines..

Knowing I won a battle because I picked units with the right auto-calc scores rather than because I had a good army makes me feel like a cheater so I won't test that out. If I get good with all cav armies, now then it's a different matter and I won't feel guilty. Gaming morality, crazy heh?

I shall have a look at the other topic when I get chance.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Hero units. Too much a 'crazy-power' unit for my tastes. They make me feel like I can get away with sloppy play when they are on my side, and are a chore to kill when the AI has them. They also ruin the illusion that the battle is plausible. I used them in a single battle and will not build them again.

Battlefield ninja. I didn't see the point in STW, and I don't see it in S2TW. Maybe if as a player I was more interested in hunting down the enemy general I'd have a different view. As it is, I prefer to kill him later in the battle.

Bomb throwers, cavalry archers and guns are all units which have a place in my armies; that place is highly limited, highly specialised, and I do not want them around outside of that. I'm working on guns in the hopes I will one day wish to include them in my standard armies. At the moment I feel I have other, better ways to get similar results using more standard unit types, e.g. a flanking cavalry charge instead of a flanking gun volley to damage morale.

oh no,Hero units are the best!They were used in Japan during that peroid.And they are killers!

[frogbeastegg]

oh no,Hero units are the best!They were used in Japan during that peroid.And they are killers!

One day I should do a comedy test battle in the custom battle mode. One of each hero unit for my army and no one else, versus 20 units of yari ashigaru. How many men can the heroes kill? I used to do that to relieve stress in the older games, like 4 units of the best knights against a horde of peasants. It's a good break from the regular battles I like to fight in campaign mode.

By the way, how did your campaign go? Did you win?

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

No,I have not had enough time to go my computer, apparently because I am using 2 computers,steam suspended my account,I've emailed them,they haven't replied.Maybe If I access the original computer it can let me access it . I'm on a different comp for now.which sucks:(.

But I'm telling you,Hero units are not to be underestimated.I know how dangerous they can be,They're expert killers for gods sake!If you looked at history they were widely used.I think so,not sure,should check my books.

Yeah.,checked,And I must agree with you,hero units are not that effective.

say er..Could you read my story and give some feedback?thank you.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...34700-My-story.

[Gregoshi]

One day I should do a comedy test battle in the custom battle mode. One of each hero unit for my army and no one else...

Ah, Herohito's Army!

[The_Emperor]

Some very interesting ideas here about the horse archers. Will have to test out the dismounted unit.