Is the tech tree too slow in this game?

[gauch0]

I'm playing my first long campaign, and for the first time I've researched the tech that will allow me to produce geishas. Unfortunately, I'm one province away from victory, and it will take me six turns to build the city improvement that makes geishas. I'm finding myself stalling just so that I can see a geisha unit.

What does everyone think about the speed of progression through the tech tree in this game? So far I have never seen a geisha, and I have never built a legendary building. I rarely get through half the techs before I win. Should the tech progression be faster? Or am I playing wrong?

(FYI: I am playing on H/H.)

[Leptomeninges]

People have commented on this elsewhere, but in my opinion the problem isn't so much that the tech tree is too slow. The problem is that the campaign tends to be won or lost in the first 20 turns or so. They seem to have balanced the campaign's difficulty around those opening moves when you are often attacked from multiple sides at once. But once you stabilize your borders and get a strong foothold, the "mopping up" seems inevitable. I've never come close to needing the full set of turns allocated to any campaign length to finish the victory conditions. As a result, I never work my way very far down the tech tree. (Most recently playing on VH/VH. Haven't tried legendary yet.)

In my opinion the solution isn't to speed up tech. It's to make the mid-game more challenging and slow it down. It's even possible they could achieve this with a couple fixes like archer siege AI.

RD is a nice idea. But I think it would be better if it wasn't so easy to game it. Introduce a random element to RD? Take away the "fame bar?" As it stands it's pretty easy to sit just short of RD while preparing four or five province conquests you can launch simultaneously while pushing RD. Longer campaigns actually seem easier as you can pick up more provinces before pushing RD.

[gauch0]

Interesting points. Another idea might be to add more volatility to the general-loyalty mechanic. I have not had to deal with any traitorous generals yet.

[Gregoshi]

But I think it would be better if it wasn't so easy to game it. Introduce a random element to RD? Take away the "fame bar?" As it stands it's pretty easy to sit just short of RD while preparing four or five province conquests you can launch simultaneously while pushing RD.

That is the problem. Too much of the strategy and tactics I see discussed sound like "gaming it". Many aspects of the game are hard numbers rather than fuzzy concepts, thus allowing us to exploit things right up to the brink to our advantage and the AI's detriment. The Realm Divide is a great concept and does (or "did" in the early days) extend the challenge of the campaign, but it obviously still needs some help to keep the challenge viable for longer, thus making the campaigns longer and thus more of the tech tree accessible.

[Forward Observer]

Unless one turtles, it seems pretty impossible to finish out both sides of the tech tree. I have yet to finish either single side--even in two long domination campaigns. I'd like to see them add the ability to trade or steal techs like Napoleon and Empire had. That was how I got a good percentage of my early techs out of the way. It also seems to me that once you vanquish a clan you should acquire any odd techs that they had managed to learn.

Another thing that seems weird is that I have yet to come up against an opposing force after I had achieved the Bushido art that gave me flaming arrows where they didn't have them also. In other words it seems like the minute I get flaming arrows, everybody else appears to have them too. I makes me think that at the point that I achieve some of the techs, they are also given to the A.I.


Of course, this may simply be my imagination, and whether the A.I. effectively uses all their techs is another matter. If I ever run in to an equal size B.A.I army on the field with a mangonel, it's going to be interesting.

Cheers

[Graphic]

Just right IMO. Saves the really powerful stuff for late game. If it was any faster you'd be fighting for a while with the whole thing researched and that wouldn't be much fun IMO.

[Dead Guy]

It's great as it is. You get to choose something to focus on, or be average at everything.

In my most recent Oda campaign on Legendary, I chose to go all the way down the spear side of Bushido after getting the farming techs. Training Oda Yari Ashigaru with 5 experience, +2 armor and +4 melee in castles kind of unbalances the game and should really not be possible unless you've focused your tech like that, and sacrificed cavalry efficiency etc in the process.

Naginata Monks can also be trained with 7xp with little hassle, 9xp from the get go with a few more turns put into either traditional building or getting the famous temple (Theoretically 11 if you get both I think? +3 from arts, +4 from famous temple, +4 from fortified monastery). That should not happen in every campaign IMHO.

On the topic of gaming the Realm Divide, I managed to do that a lot better in this short campaign than in my previous long ones. I allied and married with quite a lot of clans before I hit the divide and managed to capture Kyoto and the provinces needed to win long before most of the clans declared war on me. It could be argued that was just prudent diplomacy though...

[Rothe]

I suppose some people are "completionist" and think that a game should let you experience all the content when playing through it. I disagree, although on my first playthrough I was perhaps thinking that more techs would be interesting.

I think it is a good thing that I can't really be a master of all the different troop types even at endgame.
It makes the campaigns more different. Sometimes I have strong spears/naginata and muskets, and other times I am a master of the bow and sword. Sometimes I have lots of chi advances, but only a narrow part of the bushido tree. It is all ok.

What is more of a problem is that some of the techs don't reward enough for getting them. So far I never got the tech to boost metsuke, or the sumo tech. Perhaps a slight rebalancing so that the obviously powerful techs cost a bit more in turns, and the less powerful ones could be a bit faster.

I usually play long campaigns with my final push for Kyoto coming close to 1670 - 1675 or so. By that time, I tend to have decent tech, but nowhere near a complete set of either side.

I have mentioned it before, but to mention it again: As an effect of the bushido tree, the most recent recruits always seem to be better than any already fielded troops who have fought battles. Perhaps the tech effects should be retroactively applied, so that the veteran troops are not obsoleted.

[Dead Guy]

By the way, one of the spear techs says "enables spear square" or something. Does it really? For which unit?

[gauch0]

Hey, good point about the spear square! I think I gained that tech in my last game, but I never noticed any spear square ability.

[Rothe]

I think it is supposed to be for yari samurai. It would explain why I never got to use it, since I barely use any yari samurai in my campaign games - naginata are more versatile.

[Dead Guy]

According to what I read at twcenter, it's not working properly, or it's only intended for the Yari Hero, which is currently the only unit that can form one.

[Ed TW]

I think it's too slow. I've played five campaigns so far and have only gotten about 3/4 of the way down the tree.

[The_Emperor]

Far too slow for my tastes.

All too often you have to wait 6-8 turns to research that nice new big building and then many other turns for it to be constructed before you can gain any benefit. (as opposed to just building up in the old RTW and M2TW)

CA needs to speed it up.

[Daveybaby]

Yeah, i think it is a *wee* bit too slow. I think the early game pace is fine, but as you move down the tech tree the research times start to seem excessive. I dont think you should be able to research the full tree in every game, but it'd be nice to actually see *some* of the top end techs in, say, an average length game.

Seriously thinking about making my next game focussed on tech, i.e. all generals get bushido tech skills, all monks focus on chi tech skills, build lots of temples, etc.

[Rothe]

Yeah, i think it is a *wee* bit too slow. I think the early game pace is fine, but as you move down the tech tree the research times start to seem excessive. I dont think you should be able to research the full tree in every game, but it'd be nice to actually see *some* of the top end techs in, say, an average length game.

Seriously thinking about making my next game focussed on tech, i.e. all generals get bushido tech skills, all monks focus on chi tech skills, build lots of temples, etc.

I suppose I don't feel it is too slow because I tend to put some effort into teching up. I usually always pick at least the second tier of the general's bushido skill since it gives +9% and the third only gives +3% more. For Monks, chi upgrades are pretty easy to get without giving up too much, for me it is enough to have one monk specialized in inciting revolts and the others can just be generalists with tech skills taken in addition to the normal stuff.

[Daveybaby]

I suppose I don't feel it is too slow because I tend to put some effort into teching up.

Yeah, i've always kind of ignored this aspect of the game, occasionally give a general bushido skills when i cant think of anything else, but that's about it. I think the problem is that you really dont see much noticable impact on research times for a single improvement, so even though it all adds up it's hard to feel youre getting value for money vs (say) +1 morale for ashigaru, something you can really notice in a battle.

But yeah, next game i'm definitely going for an all-out tech-fest. Probably best to go for Takeda or Hojo, (maybe Uesegi) since youve got 2 provinces with philosophical tradition (Suruga & Kosuka) nearby. Having 2 confucian academies will probably speed up research somewhat.

[White_eyes:D]

I always choose "Poet"(+9 to Bushido arts?) for my generals and yet, I never seem to get an end-game tech, before I win on short victory conditions.

When the Realm Divide hits, I just stop focusing on tech and just blitz. Monks and monastery's and church's help, but I don't build any more then three or four. Maybe I need more?

[frogbeastegg]

Speaking as a complete research nut and tech freak in strategy games, I like Shogun 2's current speed. It forces me to pick and choose; it's one of those rare games where I don't get everything.

I don't give any of my people the skills which boost research, although I do use buildings which give a passive bonus. I decide what I want out of my campaign and go from there. I research deep and narrow, not wide and shallow. I research to support my clan bonuses, then to support my own aims, and all the techs which don't fit into those categories in that campaign are left. I research them if I can slot them in quickly at a time when there's nothing more interesting available.

[Captain Fishpants]

Speaking as a complete research nut and tech freak in strategy games, I like Shogun 2's current speed. It forces me to pick and choose; it's one of those rare games where I don't get everything.

I don't give any of my people the skills which boost research, although I do use buildings which give a passive bonus. I decide what I want out of my campaign and go from there. I research deep and narrow, not wide and shallow. I research to support my clan bonuses, then to support my own aims, and all the techs which don't fit into those categories in that campaign are left. I research them if I can slot them in quickly at a time when there's nothing more interesting available.

FYI, the tech tree speed is/was intended to keep you from "seeing everything" on one pass through the game. If you can't research everything, you have to prioritize, and that means there's a lot of meaningful strategic choice in the tech tree.

And being able to do everything, everywhere with everybody is actually rather boring and samey. Constraints and opportunity costs add to the fun of the game in terms of making good decisions!

[frogbeastegg]

FYI, the tech tree speed is/was intended to keep you from "seeing everything" on one pass through the game. If you can't research everything, you have to prioritize, and that means there's a lot of meaningful strategic choice in the tech tree.

And being able to do everything, everywhere with everybody is actually rather boring and samey. Constraints and opportunity costs add to the fun of the game in terms of making good decisions!

It works wonderfully for me and I wish more strategy games would do the same

Games like Civilisation should be paradise for research nuts like myself. Lots of meaningful choices in those tech trees, right? Instead I use the strategies built into the game to get everything, every time. The order changes a bit in the fine detail, yet the overall research picture stays the same game after game, faction after faction, difficulty after difficulty. By the time I win each game I have everything and am doing the generic future tech items.

I love the way Shogun forces the player to make meaningful choices, in research and in a lot of other areas. To me that is the very core of what a strategy game should be. I've had times where I've gone and made a cup of tea while I mull over my options; not many games I can say that of.

[TinCow]

I like the tech tree speed. If there's a speed issue, I think it's with the campaign length, not the tech tree. On my first full campaign (short), I expanded pretty quickly at first, then consolidated to build up my economy and units prior to Realm Divide. I almost lost due to time and ended up blitzing to Kyoto when I got the two year warning. That was kind of annoying, as I really didn't feel like I had been stalling or turtling.

I'm currently playing a Long Campaign on Legendary difficulty, and decided to make it a bit different by converting to Christianity. Doing this requires a lot of time investment and army presence at home to keep order during the transition, which has hampered my early expansion. While I should still have a good 35-40 years after I'm done getting my domestic affairs in order, I'm already concerned about running into the time limit. It would be nice, for the Dominaiton Campaign at least, if there was no time limit. Or, if you want to be historical, set the limit to 1868.

[frogbeastegg]

Actually, that's a good point, Tincow. I'm also a slow player; I like to consolidate, tidy up, and wait for opportunities. That means my campaigns probably last longer than most people's so I have time to research a bit more.

I'm doing the Christian route in my current Shimazu/short/hard game. Or should I say I'm doing frantic frog-on-hot-stones diplomacy trying to keep people from declaring war on me while my little clan slowly converts. The massive 7 province Mori are out for my blood and the only thing keeping them from storming me with their massive armies is a single Nanban trade ship. Good thing reports of that ship's effectiveness were not exaggerated; it really can kill entire fleets on its own. I'm looking forward to seeing the Christian research boosts in action.

BTW, if you want to play a short campaign and have a longer time limit, use Shimazu or Date. They get an extra 20 turns compared to the other clans. I didn't realise that until I went into the game to write some clan details down for the guide.

[Daveybaby]

Games like Civilisation should be paradise for research nuts like myself. Lots of meaningful choices in those tech trees, right? Instead I use the strategies built into the game to get everything, every time.

One of the reasons for this is that there are too many interdependencies in Civ tech trees. It's next to impossible to drill down one path because there are always one or more prerequisite techs (often from other paths). You can only get so far without getting stuck and having to backup to research a bunch of earlier techs, thus you end up having to research everything anyway. This also gives rise to the problem that all of the civs end up playing the same way, since a lot of the differentiation comes with free techs that everyone has within a few turns anyway.

FWIW i think Shogun2 suffers from this slightly too. IMO you'd get a lot more drilling down to later techs if you only needed any one prerequisite tech instead of all of them in order to research something. Same applies to skill trees too, you'd get a wider variety of possible builds (although this applies to a much lesser degree, there are very few skills with multiple prereqs).

FYI, the tech tree speed is/was intended to keep you from "seeing everything" on one pass through the game. If you can't research everything, you have to prioritize, and that means there's a lot of meaningful strategic choice in the tech tree.

While i think this is an excellent goal, the risk is that a lot of players are never going to see any of those techs. I'm on my 4th campaign and i've never actually seen any late game tech (and i dont rush my games by any stretch of the imagination), hence my desire to play a tech game next time round.

I suspect one of the reasons for this is the drastically increased research times the further down the tree you go. Do i go for tech X (4 turns to research) or tech Y (7 turns)? Often tech X will seem the more attractive option because it's going to be giving benefits more quickly, resulting in a tendency to spread across the tech trees rather than drilling down. I suppose in theory as your empire grows/progresses (more tech boosting bonuses generals/monks/provinces) then research times for later techs should come down to something more managable, trouble is so do the easier techs, and to be honest i havent noticed that much of an effect from bonuses so far in my games (i'm sure it's there, it just doesnt really jump out at me). And this only gets worse the further down you go, to the point that to research one late game tech, youre actually throwing away the opportunity to gain maybe 3 or even 4 earlier techs in the same timeframe.

I think i'd be more likely to drill down the tech tree if research times were slightly more homogenous, i.e bring down the later tech times, and increase the earlier ones so that the overall progress remains similar over the course of a game. Still have an increase just not as drastic as it is now. Obviously this is just me, chances are i'm just weird.

*

Kind of off topic, but personally, some of the most interesting tech systems in games have been those which change the tech tree from game to game, e.g. Master of Orion 1, or Sword of the Stars. Random techs just wouldnt be available in a given game, forcing you out of your safe tech progression ways, and making each game play somewhat differently. Probably not feasible in a historic game though.

[frogbeastegg]

One of the reasons for this is that there are too many interdependencies in Civ tech trees. It's next to impossible to drill down one path because there are always one or more prerequisite techs (often from other paths). You end up having to research everything anyway. This also gives rise to the problem that all of the civs end up playing the same way, since a lot of the differentiation comes with free techs that everyone has within a few turns anyway.

That dependency is half the problem. The other is that some routes are clearly superior for my play style. People always insist the order you get them in is a big, meaningful decision. Writing or horses? Meh, that's easy - writing, then I get horses faster. Then the same people tell me that you can't have everything if you don't build as many research focused cities, to which my answer is always "Why would I not do that? I'm a tech addict - give me a way to get everything quickly and I can't not do it!"

Civ's tech tree and research system needs an overhaul IMO. If they removed most of the links and worked on tech price instead it might do better. You can have any tier 1 tech for 40 points, any tier 2 tech for 80, and so on. You need 3 tier 1 techs to unlock all of tier 2, 6 tier 2 techs for tier 3, etc. It would be very difficult to balance.

FWIW i think Shogun2 suffers from this slightly too. IMO you'd get a lot more drilling down to later techs if you only needed any one prerequisite tech instead of all of them in order to research something. Same applies to skill trees too, you'd get a wider variety of possible builds (although this applies to a much lesser degree, there are very few skills with multiple prereqs).

If you took my average research tree out of the game you'd find a lot of straight lines from top to bottom and a lot of sections not touched or barely touched. I'll go all the way down swords or spears, and 1-2 techs down the other. Either I do all of archer or none, all of naval or none, all of guns or none; typically I have one out of these three. I only pick up the 4 'middle' techs (form, horse mastery, heaven and earth, five elements) if it is convenient to me.

On chi I always go straight down the left side: farms! If there's a weakness with the tech tree then IMO that is it. It is the single line which you absolutely must take in every game. I often pick up the entire religious building tree. Other than that the entire thing is circumstantial, and again entire lines go untouched. If I have converted to Christianity then I will go the diplo route to offset the penalty. If I'm having widespread unhappiness problems or want to make freshly conquered cities easier to hold I might go down that line. If I am using ninja a lot I do those 2 techs, otherwise I choose higher mission prices and lower ninja infrastructure in order to free up research. I tend to ignore the market building line. The metsuke line, sometimes I go for it and others I don't.

I don't chase the ultimate tech in each family because it involves spending time on techs I want less, so in a way it would be nice to have that de-coupled from the prerequisites, or have them changed to techs more commonly researched like sword and spear. On the other hand if that were the case I know what I'd do - I'd get it every single time. With it in such easy reach I'd have to have it. It would harm the variety a bit IMO. I intend to take a different path in a future game and get those ultimate techs, and doing that will force me to research stuff I normally ignore and ignore stuff I currently consider necessary. It will be a very different game and should shake up some of my perceptions.

I'm the kind of player who would rather spend 7 turns on a tech which truly fits my design than 4 on one because it has a nice boost I can get sooner. The item which fits my design will have a bigger impact overall than a nice tech, or even 2 nice techs. The -1 turn samurai recruitment times and extra XP on recruitment from the penultimate sword/spear tech is more use to me than say, +1 general's loyalty and enabling fire arrows from faster techs.

Skill trees ... are difficult. I have found lines that I am happy with and tend to stick to them. I need to try and be more varied; I'm too set on using an agent in a particular way to the exclusion of the alternate abilities.

My generals get similar abilities because I don't know what some of the ones I might otherwise pick do. Adding to command stars during attack or defence, for example. What does that command star represent? No one knows. It would be wonderful if one of the CA folks could tell us. Instead I take a known factor, like extra morale, because then I'm getting a tangible benefit.

Kind of off topic, but personally, some of the most interesting tech systems in games have been those which change the tech tree from game to game, e.g. Master of Orion 1, or Sword of the Stars. Random techs just wouldnt be available in a given game, forcing you out of your safe tech progression ways, and making each game play somewhat differently. Probably not feasible in a historic game though.

I have a healthy appreciation for Sword of the Stars' random research trees. They are not something most games could use but in that one game they work excellently. It gives the game a lot of replay value and means the player always that little edge of uncertainty. You can't get too comfortable with any given strategy because one day the tech to provide it may not be given to you. I hope SotS 2 is good ...

[Dead Guy]

While I agree the tech-tree in Civ doesn't make for all that interesting choices or dramatic effects, an early horse rush beats writing in any continents or pangea game! :p It's so effective it's a bit boring. Bee line for horseback riding, pop a settler next to (some say ON to save the turns a worker takes to connect it) a revealed horse resource and spam as many horsemen as it allows, and rush the closest player. On the harder difficulties I almost need to do that to keep up with the AI handicap. This might be due to the somewhat unbalanced way science output works in Civ 5 though, where population is basically the most important factor for teching up. Or it was last time I played, there's been a few patches since.

I still quite like the tech tree in Shogun 2. And spamming temples does make a real difference on the Chi side I've noticed. I was able to grab all the Chi arts I wanted before realm divide in my latest campaign where I went nuts with temples instead of building level 1 markets everywhere.

[econ21]

I agree with Captain Fishpants and Frogbeastegg - the speed you work down the tech tree is just right. If you focus on tech and play a long campaign, you can get some ultimate techs but you can't get them all. That means you have to make interesting choices and you get more replay value in new campaigns. There are few "must have" techs - like fire by rank in ETW - so the choices are real ones. I also like the bonuses for being the first faction to build ultimate buildings - again, you won't get them all, so they raise interesting choices - which one, if any, to strive for?

[Captain Fishpants]

There's an extra level of decision making concerning arts: you can speed up research considerably if you are willing to spend generals' skill points on the right "peaceful" skills, instead of concentrating on turning them into uber-killing machines. You don't have to do this for every general, but it's worth remembering that a small think tank of generals with the appropriate skills can pay off in research terms. Sometimes this can be better than buffing up a general's skills: after all, research benefits apply to everything across your domain, while a general's bonuses only apply where he is standing.

ps: I rather like the tone of civilized debate round here! :)

[TinCow]

There's an extra level of decision making concerning arts: you can speed up research considerably if you are willing to spend generals' skill points on the right "peaceful" skills, instead of concentrating on turning them into uber-killing machines. You don't have to do this for every general, but it's worth remembering that a small think tank of generals with the appropriate skills can pay off in research terms. Sometimes this can be better than buffing up a general's skills: after all, research benefits apply to everything across your domain, while a general's bonuses only apply where he is standing.

ps: I rather like the tone of civilized debate round here! :)

I personally always go for a 'cultured' Daimyo, and max him out on the research skills. I generally try to do the same for his heir as well, though I admit it's rare that I ever end up with two generals with clicks in that skill for very long. You guys made Stand and Fight so awesome that it is hard to resist it's lure!

[Shigemasa Oyamada]

I personally think the teching is a bit slow, as I noted in one of my Date games. I waited forever for those Ashigaru Matchlocks to take Kyoto with! (I made an almost entirely Matchlock army for the occasion with surprising success). Early on the techs are fine but the later ones feel so exponentially longer when the pace of the game by that point means you can chronically keep conquering.