The military have become policemen. But let's not derail the topic.Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
~Jirisys ()
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
The military have become policemen. But let's not derail the topic.
~Jirisys ()
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Washington lied their tongues out. Anyone surprised?
First of all, it seems like OBM did not hide behind a wife. Just propaganda to make him look cowardly.
Secondly, President Obama did not see when OBM got captured/killed because of a technical error (HP machines remember?).
As a side note, eye witness reports say OBM got captured and then assassinated, the source might of course lie. On the other hand, that source might lie, where as pentagon and washington have their pants on fire already.
Something is rotten here.
Few are born with it, even fewer know what to do with it.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Source is his daughter. If they didn't want him alive bomb -> roof
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Do you have links to go along with your unbiased claims?
Or do I have to continue to suffer through your posts?
Something is rotten here....your continual denial that this is the way the world works. If I am going to have to sit here and endure 10 pages of forigeners running through every little gotcha moment they can dig up I'll be beside myself
Your telling me the story of a covert raid which resulted in the killing of the most wanted man in the world has confliciting stories just days after it happend?
Why people continue to idulge these kind of childlike delusions on this board is beyond me. Not soley picking on you but the Scandanavian members as a whole seem to be the most out of touch in everything ranging from realpolitik to social interaction. Trying to pull the rope tighter, stroking and reading the latest snippit from the AP that reveal the tiniest inconsistoncey in Americas "official" story may be sporting where you come from
But here you just look misinformed
I will take my ban now
See everyone after exams
Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 05-05-2011 at 07:56. Reason: Removed colourful metaphors
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Yes, bin Laden thankfully.
And therein lies the real story for those of us who champion human rights. President Obama could have bombed the entire complex flat, thus killing many civilians and probably half the Abbottabad suburbs. No risk to US forces, no confused after action stories, just as much acclaim.
The fate of Jimmy Carter looms large to any Democrat president. Those rusting hulks in Iran's desert must have weighed heavily in Obama's mind. Yet he took the right decision and saved a lot of lives. As Xiahou rightly notes, the US is at war with al-Qa'eda so the killing is perfectly justified as an act of self-defence. Even as an extra-judicial execution it is justifiable - the world is sometimes thus. Note that bin Laden also considered himself at war - and almost certainly welcomed death to incarceration at the hands of the "infidel". All the combatants got what they wanted, and because of an extraordinarily brave decision by the president, no further innocents had to die because of bin Laden's evil.
Well done sir, very well done.
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I am not surprised. I did not believe the "wife as human shield" story; it did not sound remotely plausible. The wife trying to protect him and getting shot in the leg makes more sense. I'm also dubious about what exactly "resisting capture" means, given that he did not have a gun. The reason why I was not surprised is that we have seen several times with initial reports of missions or high profile combat episodes that the story changes later on (e.g. the Jessica Lynch episode; the sportsman who died in service in Afghanistan).
Whether they lied, I don't know. One thing that makes me give Washington the benefit of the doubt is that they change the story quite quickly and do seem remarkably open about such matters compared to almost any other government I can think off. If they were going to lie, you'd think they would brazen it out for longer. Because lying and being caught out within a few days just damages your reputation. On the other hand, the initial stories always seem more favorable from a PR purpose. "OBL kills his wife" is great black propaganda. And no doubt there's a segment of the population who catches the initial headlines, then never sees the corrections or cares. Many people are still confused about the lack of any connection between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. But on balance, I'm inclined to think it's a case of confusion of warfare and PR people spinning initial reports in the most favorable way they can. I'd rather the PR people were reined in and more circumspect, but in today's climate with all the bizzare birther stuff gaining traction, I can see why they fight fire with fire.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
And what do the Genevé conventions say about a man such as bin Laden?
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
LOL, Anytime someone throws out the Geneva conventions I know two things
They know nothing about the topic at hand
They have an agenda so the topic at hand is nothing more than a springboard
I'll have gray hair and be thriced divorce before someone on her proves this killing was illegal using Geneva
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
heh quite the rant back there Strike, don't ever go to Scandinavia trust me, it would be bad for your heart.
Last edited by Fragony; 05-05-2011 at 08:24.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Fragony, Banquo's Ghost, if he bombed it would have been hard to confirm the kill. Also, bombing civilians in "neutral" territory was probably advised against. Do I have to explain why or can you figure it out?
econ21, I was not very surprised either, the whole hiding behind a woman thing just seemed too good to be true. Small matter, maybe, but I just hate propaganda. Like with Obama not watching the assault. Does it matter? Not really, it is just worth pointing out he did not because they started the whole propaganda-look-at-our-commander-in-chief-yee-haa-and-here-is-the-cool-picture-to-show-thing. Not vital at all, just showing the theatrical side of US politics. That is the picture that will be remembered, you know. Just like when I think of the Iraq war I see this picture of Saddam's statue falling with a cheering crowd around - even though I now know that was completely staged and the cheering crowd was paid to be there and cheer.
Strike for the south, I will adress you when/if you learn proper manners. Or when/if you write something interesting. Whatever happens first.
PJ, My talk about Geneva was directed to the WW2 comment from before, and I made a whole other point than what you seem to have got. I do not believe I claimed OBM should be handled by the Geneva convention as you seem to think.
Few are born with it, even fewer know what to do with it.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Of course they can identify him after a bombing, much less work than building a replica of the mansion in fact. Meat -> lab
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
You see, that's why they should have tried to capture him alive and drag him to a court, that way everybody would officially know where he was, what the evidence against him was, why he was captured and how the matter was handled.
What they did was do a covert operation, shoot him several times, then buried him deep below the sea, waited for a week and only then came out saying he'd been killed, that he wasn't armed etc. without presenting any objective evidence so far.
And you wonder why there are different stories and conspiracy theories?
And about this being a war, I wasn't aware that Pakistan was a war zone/at war with the US, or that OBL was the crucial, single decision-maker of global terrorism.
The point being that the way it sounds this was a pure revenge for 9/11 matter for most Americans rather than a prevention of further terror attacks.
I'm not going to put blame on the seal who shot him because I wasn't there, I take issue with people saying that it was right even if it was technically murder for revenge and nothing else.
If someone directly affected by 9/11 murdered him for revenge that's one thing, but state-sanctioned murder for revenge just shouldn't happen.
Last edited by Husar; 05-05-2011 at 11:50.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
There is a direct (speculated) link between that event and this one, being that the team that was formed in response to the Iran stuff up is the one that went in. I'm not so sure if it was whom they nickname SEAL team 6, makes for an interesting piece of speculation.
As for bombing the place and finding the meat:
a) Pakistan would have to let you back in.
b) A piece of meat could be just a foot, and now you have a one footed kidney dialysis patient (two footed ones aren't very mobile to start with).
That was something I had against bombing Tora Bora, we were left with a probable, not certain death. Still prefer the idea of a day in court and then a short drop.
Will this make an iota of difference to the Al Qaeda franchise? Nope, KFC is still doing fine after the colonel kicked the bucket. Once an idea is out there, it can't be unthought.
Last edited by Papewaio; 05-05-2011 at 23:10. Reason: Clarity at/aren't
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I think there's a big issue of whether terrorists should be assassinated by governments. Spielberg's film Munich tackled that superbly, although even after repeated viewing I still don't know what I think about the issue (or what Spielberg does!). It's a tough one. At one level, in a war, shooting an enemy general is probably always justified unless he has his hands up and offers to surrender. At another level, we have incredibly strict legal rules about how states should deal with suspected criminals (including presumption of innocence etc.). In this particular case, I think killing OBL is far closer to the "enemy general" paradigm than the "suspected criminal" one but the gulf between the two is massive and appears something of a grey area to me at least.
On the practical issue of what actually happened here, I think we still don't know enough. I read something this morning about an AK and a pistol being at OBL's bedside and him going for it. If that was true, then even on the "suspected criminal" paradigm, shooting him dead was absolutely fine.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Not to burst your bubble of the all knowing all powerful evil CIA/USA military establishment but is it not possible all the stories we heard quoted about human shields and the like in the news were ye know made up by the tv and papers.
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
No, as I understand it, the story about the wife as human shield came from a White House briefing on Monday, retracted on Tuesday.
Having just typed that, the latest I read is that the rules of engagement were not to let him surrender unless he was naked.
I don't know who you think I am (have I ever said the USA was evil?), but one thing I love about the US is how open with information it seems to be. That's why I usually tend to incline more to the cock-up than conspiracy theories when it comes to these changing stories.
Last edited by econ21; 05-05-2011 at 12:45.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
The confirmation of the kill might have been slightly more difficult, but had the decision to bomb been taken, the necessity would have been to completely total the area. There will be conspiracy theorists and deniers whatever had been done. As with other attacks, DNA would have been taken at the scene of the bombing later on. A bombing mission was the safest, most reliable option (from the US point of view) but the president chose a course that minimised the loss of even more innocents.
Point two: the United States continues to bomb areas in Pakistan with drones and planes and has done for a long time. To my mind, the continuing slaughter of innocent Pakistanis in the North West, for entirely dubious reasons, is of far more concern than the execution of an evil man. Thus the worries the US may have had over bombing the compound were certainly not because of upsetting a "neutral" Pakistan.
There, I figured it out. Do I get a balloon?
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
My thought as well. I mean, why would the White House even try to correct this stuff at quite a cost to themselves? It's not like there are any witnessesleftthat are going to be believed.
They do it because America is still a great country that tries its best to be open. Sure, it fails a lot and gets flack for it, but that's only because we get to know.
Anyway, I liked the wife-shield story. For a man who sent young nutters to fly into buildings to murder thousands of innocent people going about their day's work, hiding behind his wife in a firefight was actually quite a step up cowardice-wise.
Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 05-05-2011 at 12:56.
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Sorry that was my fault the start of your earlier piece has the feel of someone who wants to believe the worst of the USA, however I reread it and saw that stupidly I missed the change in the second half of the post. I also tend to go with the same in regard to these incidents I don't believe that anyone can keep these kinds of things secret for long so I usually disregard any talk of conspiracies etc.
Apparently twas because he might have a suicide vest on.
Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 05-05-2011 at 14:06.
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
All the media fluff is pointless.
OBL is dead. He was executed by the United States.
Executed is not a loaded term in this context. If he had been returned to the U.S. and stood trial for the death of thousands of people, the end result would be the same.
Who knows, maybe PlanA was to get him out alive; perhaps the sacrifice of one helicopter and PlanB simply made changes "necessary".
In any case, job well done SEALS.
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
In English, to "lie" means intentional deceit. And if this administration were lying, as others have pointed out, they would have stuck to their story until it was no longer tenable.
"Corrections," on the other hand, usually come quickly as new info is gained.
Which seems more likely?
You appear to be very ready to accept any negative theory about America without a great deal of critical examination. Blind spot, that. Best to check your mirrors and look out the rear window before backing up.
I'm glad I can provide you with amusement. You might want to look into this guy named Brian Ross, who is a fairly serious journalist. Note: by using the term "serious journalist," I mean that he has a factual, checkable track record for uncovering true things before other people, with little regard to who the facts help or hurt. The organization with the biggest beef against Ross? Not the Republican party. Toyota.
Last edited by Lemur; 05-05-2011 at 17:00.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Crazy thread, some people really go out of their way to hate America...
All I will say is that I do not celebrate the death of OBL as a person. Because I never really see things in personal terms. He had his reasons for why he saw the world the way he did, just like we do. On the whole, he was a spoiled brat. Raised in privilege from day one, right to the end with his nine wives and massive complex (so much for hiding in the caves).
Something the more far-out western liberals tend to forget is that AQ are not the poor oppressed underdogs. They are often well (and western) educated, pretty wealthy... they represent the aspirations of the disaffected Arab middle-class. They cannot be compared to the likes of insurgents eg the Taliban, which really are just goatherders and what not. And lets not forget that the vast majority of AQ's victims were your typical oppressed Muslim peasant. For all the talk of Pakistan looking bad in this, we should remembers they have suffered far more at the hands of AQ than the west has.
So, what I do celebrate the death of OBL as the figurehead of Al-Qaeda. He may not have had a very active role in the organisation of late, but this is a huge symbolic victory over them, and sort of puts the icing on the cake after the Arab Spring, which itself did a lot to discredit AQ.
Also think I should add that IMO Obama did this whole thing perfectly. It was a good call not to bomb and kill civilians. And a good call with how he dealt with the body. Because whatever happened there would be conspiracy theories.
Should Osama have had a trial? Ideally, maybe so. But the reality is we were at war with him and his organisation. The Geneva Conventions don't take account for the nature of modern warfare, it isn't one country v another, nation states aren't billiard balls any more. If might not be official but we are at war with AQ as an organisation. So it is perfectly legitimate to hunt OBL down and shoot it out.
Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 05-05-2011 at 18:14. Reason: nine wives, not nine lives...
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I would say despite the fact it is plain as mud Osama did it, the facts to hand might have been a bit muddy to actually convict him of anything to do with Sep 11. I could imagine the trial dragging on for years with OBL spouting all sorts of rubbish everyday to the papers burnishing his credentials as the saviour of Islam, tis better he was topped however distasteful that may feel.
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
You see no potential discrapancy in these two statements? You should work at Guantanamo bay. The interrogators were told to see constant protestations of innocence as proof that they were terrorist masterminds schooled in anti-interrogation by AQ.... oh **** - it turns out some of them really were just shepherds
Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 05-05-2011 at 17:23. Reason: Language
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
No I see no discrepency at all cos he said himself he did Sep 11th in a video, but that does not prove he did it now does it.You see no potential discrapancy in these two statements? You should work at Guantanamo bay. The interrogators were told to see constant protestations of innocence as proof that they were terrorist masterminds schooled in anti-interrogation by AQ.... oh **** - it turns out some of them really were just shepherds
Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 05-05-2011 at 17:29.
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I agree with the fact that taking OBL back to America for trial wouldn't have been wise.
I'm not versed with America's legal system, or whether it is as dysfunctional in certain situations as our own, but trying to prove a known terrorist is guilty in a court of law with full proceedings is a waste of time and resource.
As an example I'll cite the lone survivor of the group who attacked Bombay in 2008. Nearly three years later, that man is still alive behind bars, while his trial dragged on. In the meantime he's been getting three full meals a day inside his cell (which is more than what many millions in this country can manage). The cell itself was made specially, lest some of the other prisoners try and harm him, far as I can remember I actually read an article where it was claimed that an overpass was being made so that no road passed anywhere close to the prison compound where he was held. Now after his conviction from the High court, he has a chance to appeal to the Supreme court, where his case is likely to go on for several years again. And once irrevocably convicted, it will still take a few years for the sentence to actually be carried out.
So the point I'm basically trying to make is, that when you know a person is utterly guilty, no sort of logic can justify them being put on any sort of trial at all. Shot on sight and dumped into the sea is being kind to a man who was behind the death of thousands of innocent civilians.
The horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
A bit off topic, but has the org even considered a "like" function like they have on facebook and other message boards?
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I don't care about the photos of OBL's corpse, and I suspect the admin is correct in not releasing them now. On the other hand I demand -- DEMAND! -- to see pictures of the explosive-sniffing doggie involved in the operation. I mean, seriously, an elite commando dog in an armored jacket with videocameras and an oxygen mask? This I have to see. I have a right, a god-given right to see this dog.
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Cool a real live Commando Doggie I smell a disney movie in the off
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Osama's chums who were in the compound have far, far more to gain from muddying the waters by lying to the notoriously unreliable Pakistani newspapers than the Obama administration has to gain from providing a slightly misleading account of his death.
It's sad how critical journalism is considered "bias" by ignorant people. True bias lies in doing what does not deserve to be written, and writing what does not deserve to be read.
On a side note, it is positively heartwarming to see the same men who fill the streets demanding the death of anyone who dares to criticise law against blasphemy reduced to a solemn silence by the Bin Laden's death. We can all have good reason to be cheered by that, even if we consider finding joy in Bin Laden's death abhorrent.
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