How does Charge bonus work?

[RedKnight]

I guess the main question here boils down to:

Do I have to keep ramming my cavalry into a unit, pulling it back, and ramming it again, to get the charge bonus?

Although this makes sense relative to the words, it's a lot of micromanagement when you've got 20 units to worry about... Is there any way to automate it, or otherwise make it easier to perform? (Does anyone use multiple waypoints to make multiple charges... would that work?)

Related question: Are cavalry only ever as good as their other stats, if not charging? (i.e., if they are simply meleeing, do they have no charge bonus at all?) I see some old MTW2 threads that talk about a much more diffuse, weaker "informal charge" that you get if not actually charging... but then, MTW2 had some serious chargers (lancers).

Thanking you in advance!

RK

[econ21]

I suspect you are right in what you fear - that you only get the charge bonus in the initial stage of a well conducted charge. Going by past TW games, you probably can continue to get that charge if the cavalry unit mows down the first row and continues into back rows with impetus. However, sooner or later - probably sooner - it will peter out, so pulling back and recharging is required to get full use of it. After it is gone, I suspect cavalry are just as good as their other stats - and worse, since many infantry get attack bonuses against them (spears, naginata).

The light cavalry and yari cavalry stats are particularly low, so they would be all about the charge. But they are so fragile, they suffer when I try to pull them out to recharge. I'm probably in a minority on this board in preferring the katana cavalry as they can duke it out for longer. Like you, I find the charge-recharge gameplay takes too much micro - especially in this game where kill rates and movement speeds are so high.

I still find the best use for cavalry is to chase routers. Beyond that, I like to employ them in a rear charge to a committed and weakened infantry line, causing the target to break on impact and start a chain rout. However, that seems to happen much less reliably than in RTW and M2TW. Letting the infantry wear themselves out a while longer before unleashing the cavalry may be the answer.

[RedKnight]

Thanks econ, I like most every point you made about TWS2, including liking katana cav in general. But there is one place where yari cav is better: If/when you get into a fight with other cav. (Although one might, of course, try to not do that much.)

Although the charge bonus makes sense in the real world, it's just too much work in most S2 battles, for me. (Although we all love the charge graphics, hehe.) Unfortunately this may also mean that Warhorse provinces (=charge bonus) may not be all that good, as intended... maybe cav should simply be made in a Smithing province.

If one charges into the back of a committed infantry unit, it's entirely possible that your cav go flying through not only them, but your own infantry that the enemy is engaging... if it's anything like arrows, I bet "friendly fire" can happen there, too.

[Azi Tohak]

Although the charge bonus makes sense in the real world, it's just too much work in most S2 battles, for me. (Although we all love the charge graphics, hehe.) Unfortunately this may also mean that Warhorse provinces (=charge bonus) may not be all that good, as intended... maybe cav should simply be made in a Smithing province.

Agreed. I'm going to keep that in mind in the future. I was pretty excited to use the Takeda to get their great homegrown cavalry. Too bad they're not as good as my smithy cav I've made from other clans!

[RedKnight]

Agreed. I'm going to keep that in mind in the future. I was pretty excited to use the Takeda to get their great homegrown cavalry. Too bad they're not as good as my smithy cav I've made from other clans!

Huh ok... I'm really just starting to learn and have yet to play Takeda, but right, a max Warhorse Province gets +5 charge, whereas max Smith gets +4 melee (choose defense or offense) ... if you're only going to charge once then melee the rest of a battle, +4 continuously sounds better than +5 once to me.

Said another way, my general impression is that cav has approx 20 charge bonus, depending. Adding 5 (and the final Warhorse upgrade is an expensive Art) adds 25%. Compare that Smithing applies to everyone (and I mean everyone), and doesn't require a single Art... meanwhile, melee defense and offense is generally in the 5 to 10 range.

I'm sure there can be a few real cool exceptions to this rule, but it still sounds like a good rule.

Also you can consider that if you're going to make a very few, very good unit-producing provinces, you have spent less money on castle building and on the (continuous) food they need, if you make one primo smith province (including cavalry and encampment bonus) versus a smith province (without cavalry but with encampment) and a Warhouse province (that also has yari, katana, encampment), see?

* edit * added second paragraph - and starting a new thread asking if Warhouse provinces are effectively broken for making cavalry

[Slaists]

In my experience, the charge bonus (for all units, not only cavalry) is rather useless. You get the full benefit of it only if the unit is perfectly aligned and there are no terrain impediments on the unit's path to the target. More often than not, that will not be the case (i.e., some soldier will stumble over a mole mound causing the whole unit to lose the bonus).