The Campground [Concluded]

[Andres]

But now I find your case to be really contrived. I mean, Atpg and Chaotix have this clear connection but it is because Atpg wants to use it as a screen for Scienter. Also, if this is what you think, why aren't you voting for Atpg. Certainly he's been flagged more, already has a vote on him, and will be an easier lynch than Scienter who probably won't get a big showing given the thing with you and Atpg/Chaotix.

Yes, ATPG and Chaotix have a clear connection. That's why I mentioned it. As a result, ATPG immediately started to attack me. During the back and forth, I realised it wasn't likely Chaotix was his scum partner.

I've had a strong gut feeling against Scienter for a long time now; maybe I wanted to see a connection between both of them in the fact that ATPG flattered me (scum!) by stating that my gut feeling is golden and voting Scienter.

I'm sure if my case isn't convincing or clear. Note that in the Animus game people wanted to lynch me for several rounds (and eventually they did lynch me) and thought I was scum. In the end, it was shown that I was innocent and right about a lot of things.

This is getting frustrating.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yes, ATPG and Chaotix have a clear connection. That's why I mentioned it. As a result, ATPG immediately started to attack me. During the back and forth, I realised it wasn't likely Chaotix was his scum partner.

Not immediately.

Go back and look at the time stamps on my posts. Well after I read the thread and all your posts, I posted this:

It really would be a pleasure, sir. Maybe someday.

Man, this totally doesn't sound like WIFOM or anything like that. There's no chance either me or you will get any votes at all tomorrow. Nope.

And like 8 hours passed before I made any further comment.

On my first read I was simply catching up on everything that had been said, in this game and others. I took a break from the thread, came back, and attempted to use the time constructively by looking for anything unusual.

Although Reenk has a point that your comment about God Emperor may have had a purpose, in my mind, on a second read, I decided that it was coming from a place that wasn't genuine or useful. That may or may not be the case.

The point is, if this were some kind of reaction to your statement about me and Chaotix, where I would turn around and attack you out of flinching or emotion or whatever, there wouldn't have been some 8 hours in between.

Your impression of what I was doing is entirely wrong. This was pure scum-searching, and it's evident from the sequence of events and the time elapsed. If you're town and fair-minded, you'll realize that this is correct.

I've had a strong gut feeling against Scienter for a long time now; maybe I wanted to see a connection between both of them in the fact that ATPG flattered me (scum!) by stating that my gut feeling is golden and voting Scienter.

Before I have any suspicion of you in particular, I like to stand back and watch you work, and even encourage the death of your suspects. I've seen your gut lead to wonderful things before, many a time. I commented on your gut being golden in other games as well. This is my default position on you. That only changes when I know for a fact your gut is wrong, or when I suspect you're guilty.

I'm sure if my case isn't convincing or clear. Note that in the Animus game people wanted to lynch me for several rounds (and eventually they did lynch me) and thought I was scum. In the end, it was shown that I was innocent and right about a lot of things.

If we're going to go that route, I could mention you voted to lynch me early over Kagemusha, and in the end it was shown that I was innocent and right.... We could do that, but it wouldn't be very useful to anyone. I know that you're one who doesn't like these games turning into a contest of who is right, and I tend to agree. Because you are right in other situations doesn't make you more right or wrong now. Especially if you're scum, and I laid out clear reasons why I think you are.

This is getting frustrating.

If you think I am scum, you should be voting for me, Andres. Either back up your suspicions, or do not pretend to have them, my fellow blue man groupie.

[Andres]

Are you now saying that you think I'm scum because I think you're scum?

I suggest we lynch Scienter first.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Are you now saying that you think I'm scum because I think you're scum?

No, and if you're innocent, I fear we're now just talking past each other.

I think you're scum because I noticed that your continued offensive against God Emperor seemed like overkill, and so I looked on the rest of your posts in a critical light. I then noticed the same dual-attack that I've seen before from scumbags who tend to distance themselves from their partner while simultaneously accusing a townie, holding them up as equally "guilty", then following up on those "suspicions" in future rounds by (of course) picking the townie among the two.

I find that you're tossing suspicion on player after player in typical Andres form, but, I don't feel by your actions that these suspicions were genuine. Case in point, Chaotix. You weren't really interested in lynching him. Now, after I've accused you both, you've also prevented me from pressuring you into voting for Chaotix, because you've now stated that you think I am scum, and that Chaotix is not my partner.

After my attack on you, you've gone from saying Chaotix and I are connected and guilty, to just me..... oh, and also Scienter.

This is convenient, especially since one point I made was that Chaotix is likely your scum partner. Now, you've done all that you can to prevent me from asking you to back up your fake suspicion on Chaotix. Now, you have laid the ground work to prevent such a move, which would be devastating if you're both guilty.

Now, you think I am a main suspect and you're voting for Scienter. Is this some attempt at looking fair-minded? Or spreading the votes around like a townie, pressuring more suspects than just one? Maybe, but it also doesn't feel like a natural town reaction.

I'm calling for your head and you think I'm scum and there are other votes on me. You should be pressing my death harder, or explaining why you no longer think I am scum.

Explain your true position on Chaotix. Is he "innocent" because I am "guilty" and therefore he cannot be my scum partner? What if I am innocent, Andres? Isn't he worthy of some of your suspicion, at all?

I don't care that you're accusing me or Scienter. If you're townie this is normal and necessary. My main criticism of you has been that your suspicions all seem fake, and the ones I feel are the very fakest, you will refuse to back up with votes.

I suggest we lynch Scienter first.

Either you or Chaotix are where I'm going to vote today, unless neither is a real option and it's at the deadline.

I want to know if you still think I am guilty, Andres. I want to know what you really think of Chaotix.

I have also put Scienter into dangerous positions in this game, and voted for her early. Like Chaotix, it's really unlikely that she's my partner. Whatever/WIFOM I know you think this is not a valid argument.

Remember the three-way tie. I had Chaotix in the lead, and I put it tied with Scienter. If Chaotix isn't my partner because I put him into a tie the round prior, does that follow for Scienter as well? If not, why not?

Are you townie, Andres? I am not convinced you are. Show me.

[Andres]

Does everything need to have a reason in a game where guessing and being lucky are as succesful as analysing and following logical thought patterns? I've been doing the latter for a long time, constantly ignoring my intuition. Yes, my behaviour and posts may look erratic and odd. So what? Is that a problem in itself? Is that a sign of being scum? No, it isn't. You're condemning me for not following the usual play style. The usual play style hasn't been much of a succes for me; so I'm following my intuition now. It's difficult to build cases on intuition. It feels a bit like being mafia trying to find reasons to vote someone. I can say "gut", yet you'll still be demanding more explanation. I have no explanation, but I know I need to convince town. So cases sound fabricated, weird, odd, etc.

Meh, guess you'll have to get used to this new play style. I know I sound scummy. I admitted as much in the other game too.

I sincerely think Scienter is guilty, so my vote stays there. I'm going to be stubborn as a mule about this.

I'm innocent and that's the truth.

[Diamondeye]

I suggest we lynch Scienter first.

This, people. I don't like either the ATPG or the Andres lynch, but feel free to try them out after Scienter hangs.

[Andres]

This, people. I don't like either the ATPG or the Andres lynch, but feel free to try them out after Scienter hangs.

Indeed. 13 posts with nothing substantial. Posts that give the feeling she is following this game closely. Some posts with suspicious timing. And my gut. What more do you need?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Does everything need to have a reason in a game where guessing and being lucky are as succesful as analysing and following logical thought patterns? I've been doing the latter for a long time, constantly ignoring my intuition.

I sincerely think Scienter is guilty, so my vote stays there. I'm going to be stubborn as a mule about this.

I'm innocent.

You're being evasive.

For all your talk of there being a connection between Scienter and myself, Chaotix and myself, there's a more demonstrable connection between you and Chaotix. I've placed both Scienter and Chaotix into mortal danger, and allowed rounds to end with their heads near the chopping block. Either I am doing this because I sincerely wanted them to die, and tried to make it so, or I am doing it because I am a big fake fake fake faker.

That means either I am guilty and they are not my partner, or I am innocent. So, either I need to die before they do, or I am innocent. You're picking a third alternative, going for Scienter first, while leaving suspect ATPG alive. If you suspect them, you can't genuinely suspect me at this point. As I said, if you think that my votes to put them near death have been distancing tactics, then it's because I'm guilty and I need to die as much as they do.

If they were not distancing tactics, then I wanted them dead, and in such a case, only one of us could be guilty among them. Since you have heavy suspicions on me, that again leads to the idea of lynching me first.

I don't follow your logic, Andres. This just all smells of the same fake suspicion. Do you want to leave me alive because I'm a tempting lynch target in the endgame? Do you not want to look obviously eager to get rid of me, as Chaotix does? What reasoning could you have to go for Scienter over me? You've offered none except that you wish to follow your "gut", not your analytical ability. But this also smells of fakeness to me.

You pick someone to analyze and you lay out a case against them because your gut says they are suspicious. You had a gut reaction on me, and then followed it up with reasons... reasons that aren't very plausible, to me, if you're honestly analyzing anything. The same reason you concluded Chaotix was not scum with me follows for Scienter, but you never made mention of that.

Confronted with direct accusations that you and Chaotix are scum, you are evading and being defensive by poking a finger at Scienter with the impossible to debate "gut" accusation. This is your way of shutting down anyone's ability to further look for gaps in your reasoning.

It's a strong defense, and it's a defense I feel you are using because you're scum, not because you don't enjoy a good debate. This is half the fun of mafia is making accusations based on gut feelings and trying to back them up with reasons. I know you enjoy a good attack and defend and back and forth. I've seen you do it in almost every game. I also don't really buy that you're just fed up with arguing with me, because that sounds plausible, but I think I know you better than that. I feel you're avoiding any strong point I make, and even making a point of saying you'll be "stubborn" on leaving your vote on Scienter, because you know you don't have a real case on Scienter, and you can't risk voting for Chaotix. You cannot risk being reasonable here, you have to go with stubborn and unreasonable, that way no one can talk you out of it, based on some principle of trusting your gut more.

But again, your gut was supposedly tweaked by me and Chaotix as well. Now I'm saying that you had both gut and some sort of case on others, but are backing down on that because you can't be reasonable here, it is game losing. I also feel that your bid to keep me alive when you "suspect" me is just a way of wasting a more valuable endgame lynch on a wrong suspect. Should we succeed in lynching you or Chaotix, the follow up may be to lynch me, so as to get both sides dead, just to be safe. Should I be wrong about Chaotix being your partner, this wastes even further lynches, as Chaotix will still be alive and I'll be insisting he dies as well.

So, a hypothetical non-Chaotix partner of yours will win the game, even if I push hard against both you and Chaotix, and that is the real reason why you have chosen these tactics as your defense. Your goal seems to be to waste time. If you can get Scienter lynched, so much the better, because that still leaves you, Chaotix, and myself alive, and you have to know that some of us are going to get lynched in future rounds.

Andres, you're a chessmaster at this stuff, and I am spotting tactics a chessmaster would use to win this game. They're logical and brilliant, as are you. To see you go into your shell and claim stubborn gut as your reasons here, don't convince me you're town, it only reinforces my suspicion on you in particular. Ironically, it pushes me to consider you more likely to be guilty than Chaotix. It's possible there's someone else you're covering for. It's obviously not Scienter or me...

So, I shall now look and see who else you might have waiting in the wings to checkmate the town.